The votes are in: Jesus wins

[Sidhe]

Where is that stated in the scriptures? The more that is given the more that is required. Sodom wasn't judged by the law for example since it wasn't written yet (even though it was written in the human heart) but they were judged according to how they treat a stranger after the fact Abraham saved their butts a few years back. Yet those who reject the gospel (Christ)are more accountable those who were in Sodom. Thus everyone will get a fair trial.

Yeah like whatever. What about those born on the other side of the world who never heard it, what about those evil liberal churches that condone homosexuality. No it's OK I prefer hell if it's all the same to you. Particularly as I Think it's all an invention anyway, but if not, hell'll do me, sounds a much better place.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Yeah like whatever. What about those born on the other side of the world who never heard it, what about those evil liberal churches that condone homosexuality. No it's OK I prefer hell if it's all the same to you. Particularly as I Think it's all an invention anyway, but if not, hell'll do me, sounds a much better place.

What is the point of saying this? If hell were real, you'd rather go there?

You honestly prefer to be the enemy of Truth an reality and as a result become more unreal and slowly fade into the torment and hatred and anguish? You don't want to be happy or fulfill the will of God, the source of all existence?

Somehow I doubt this is true, so I don't know why you would stretch your rhetoric so much to say it.

People attach a value to things or concepts and the value we attach is based on the perceived reality of the people at the time.

'Attach' is a pretty weaksauce way of saying it. I'm strongly opposed to the implication that we can't know truth or true values, primarily because that belief makes reality basically unintelligible. We see reality as it is and we can be close to right, not right, very right etc.

Yes reality is filtered through our perceptions but we have no choice but to assume that they're accurate, obviously to say anything different is to say the last thing worth saying.

It would make every meaningful type of communication similar to people describing different imaginary lands to one another. Without a common reality assumed as the point of reference the only mode of communication, in fact, is description.

 

[Sidhe]

Yes under the terms of Christianity I would much rather go to hell. As 99% of the human race are going there or are there by default. So shall I, me the Jews the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists etc, will be very happy, thanks very much.

I would not follow a God who was that discriminatory anyway, I'd rather spend eternity in hell than put up with colossal self righteousness of that magnitude, but then again I think this elitist BS, is just an invention.

Even if God doesn't exist it's hardly surprising that the three Abrahamic faiths all claim it's just them going to heaven is it? God loves all his children, but he loves the Jews, no the Christians, no the Muslims more! how ludicrous is that?

I'm not stretching anything, I think if God exists and he handpicks a tiny minority out of the whole human race and condemns the rest to hell, I'd rather be with the majority burning in hell. 100% sincerely.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I think one thing Bozo is trying to make a point on is that regardless as to what Christ did/didn't do, the world has been unalteratably affected by him. He has set the course which history has followed to this day.

Making him incredibly powerful and influential as a resident of this planet.

Is that correct/remotely close Bozo?

We're in the same ballpark. In the decades and centuries after his death more and more people believed in his divinity and the associated stories, till they reached a 'critical mass' and began changing the world, and the future. Paul might have been a more pivotal figure than Jesus himself. It was Paul who spread the new faith to the Gentiles (including the Romans). If it hadnt been for Paul we might not even know who the Jews are, let alone Jesus.

Truth requires nothing; it just is. Things in the physical universe require some level of consciousness to get a glimmer of what is True.

Bozo, what you say about Jesus is equally true for Krishna, Buddha and Mohammed too.

Absolutely, just about any historical figures or event. Theres what really happened, which only matters at that moment, and then theres what people later on believe. In humanities 'after action reports', belief always trumps truth.

"Good" and "evil" are created by those who believe in them.

Yeah thats what Im saying. Good and evil only exist in the human universe. You can travel all over the universe in a spaceship for a million years, looking for them, but the only good or evil you find will be what you brought along with you.

Exactly. Things are valuable because we believe they are.

Like Birdjaguar says, 'God alone is'. Everything is God, so therefore the concept of value must be meaningless to God. Do we value our left foot more than our right foot, our pancreas more than our liver? No. We only concieve of value because we imagine that we and everything in the universe are seperate and different.

Things do not have value because certain people, or a particular number of people believe them. People believe them because they have a certain value, or perceive to represent a certain truth.

Whats the value of a pulsar or an interstellar dust cloud?

Interesting, Bozo, that you start a thread talking about how nobody believes what's written in the Bible, and then another thread talking about how everybody does...

I think if you read the other thread carefully, you'll find that everybody believes in Jesus, they just dont believe in the Bible, especially the Christians

He's come a long way.

Almost makes me want to reach for a Virginia Slims and run backwards on a beach in slow motion, laughing with a sweater tied around my neck, as a small black barking dog runs after me.

You didn't know Bozo has a split personality? Sometimes the DP side of Bozo shows up.

Dr Jekyll and Mr High

The majority of people during the 18th Century believed that slavery was right, but that did not make it so.

Thats what you believe because you dont live in the 18th century. You dont believe that everyone in the 18th century was evil, do you? Or dumber than you?

Nice thought. Unfortunately, it's not true, according to Jesus Himself:

John 8:42-44
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Quasar, but then how come when Jesus taught us how to pray, he began with 'Our Father, who art in heaven...'

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Whats the value of a pulsar or an interstellar dust cloud?

Buhhhhh, I was talking about immaterial values. Those, like all material things (except humans) only have value in that they are a means towards an end silly billy.

Quasar, but then how come when Jesus taught us how to pray, he began with 'Our Father, who art in heaven...'

Because you pray to the God you've got, not the God you wish you had. (ololrumsfeldlol)

Congratulations I now hate myself for making that joke.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, I liked the joke, so I'll forget all the snotty stuff you said to me in the wheat and chaff thread.

Buhhhhh, I was talking about immaterial values. Those, like all material things (except humans) only have value in that they are a means towards an end silly billy.

We're right back where we started from. Who decides which ends are important and which means are valuable? The universe, or us?

 

[punkbass2000]

Like Birdjaguar says, 'God alone is'. Everything is God, so therefore the concept of value must be meaningless to God. Do we value our left foot more than our right foot, our pancreas more than our liver? No. We only concieve of value because we imagine that we and everything in the universe are seperate and different.

God values everything equally, yes. God knows there is no right and wrong.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

It would make no sense for God to think that parts of himself are 'wrong'.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Well, I liked the joke, so I'll forget all the snotty stuff you said to me in the wheat and chaff thread.

Your obstinancy required a specific amount of snottetry that I was pleased to dispense.

We're right back where we started from. Who decides which ends are important and which means are valuable? The universe, or us?

Well I don't want to get into this kind of epic debate about the basis of reality, because you can be pretty obstuse as we've observed. But I'll answer your questions as best I can anyway.

Aristotle avocated that there can be only one simple end and I agree. This is because other ends can be chosen amongst, so in the end there must be one final purpose we direct our actions towards.

The universe can't decide things because the universe is not a person, if there is a mind behind the universe then that would decide the end and one would assume it would unavoidably be the end unto itself.

Last, as I said, it's tempting to think we completely decide values and truth but this road leads to nonsense. For the sake of all rational thought and discussion we need to believe that the values and reality we refer to are truly seperate from our perceptions of them. This is really inarguable, it's the first unconcious step in coherent thought and I often wonder if the people who actually argue it have any idea what they're saying. In this case I'll ask is that what your saying or am I misunderstanding?

P.S. There is no right and wrong then, guys? Why do you guys do anything then? How do you judge things and how do you even begin to have the arguments I've seen in here about right and wrong. Pantheism and moral relativism are linked obviously and they've have never ceased to confound me as both a cop out and ultimately extremely dangerous.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Your obstinancy required a specific amount of snottetry that I was pleased to dispense.

Youre very judicious in how you dispense snottiness.

Well I don't want to get into this kind of epic debate about the basis of reality, because you can be pretty obstuse as we've observed.

Yeah and to make things even worse, I'll be right

Aristotle avocated that there can be only one simple end and I agree. This is because other ends can be chosen amongst, so in the end there must be one final purpose we direct our actions towards.

Sounds reasonable.

The universe can't decide things because the universe is not a person, if there is a mind behind the universe then that would decide the end and one would assume it would unavoidably be the end unto itself.

Right. So as I said, value only exists in our minds, not in the universe.

Last, as I said, it's tempting to think we completely decide values and truth but this road leads to nonsense.

Why?

For the sake of all rational thought and discussion we need to believe that the values and reality we refer to are truly seperate from our perceptions of them.

Why?

This is really inarguable, it's the first unconcious step in coherent thought and I often wonder if the people who actually argue it have any idea what they're saying. In this case I'll ask is that what your saying or am I misunderstanding?

Run that one by me once more? Your asking me if I say what, exactly?

P.S. There is no right and wrong then, guys? Why do you guys do anything then? How do you judge things and how do you even begin to have the arguments I've seen in here about right and wrong. Pantheism and moral relativism are linked obviously and they've have never ceased to confound me as both a cop out and ultimately extremely dangerous.

What can be important than realizing that we humans create our own reality as we go along? What could be more empowering?

 

[punkbass2000]

There is no right and wrong then, guys? Why do you guys do anything then? How do you judge things and how do you even begin to have the arguments I've seen in here about right and wrong.

There is no right and wrong in an absolute sense. We create them and they are relative by definition.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

There is no right and wrong in an absolute sense. We create them and they are relative by definition.

Yes, this is the same as "There is no right and wrong." Thank you for clarifying.

 

[CartesianFart]

What can be important than realizing that we humans create our own reality as we go along? What could be more empowering?

Cool thing to say about being able to create reality as whatever deems fit.

I am a Poached Egg.There,i said it and i believe that is the reality.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Get enough people to believe you, and you will be a poached egg. But thats an absurd statement you just made, so the yolks on you, buddy.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Youre very judicious in how you dispense snottiness.

Yeah and to make things even worse, I'll be right


Sounds reasonable.


Right. So as I said, value only exists in our minds, not in the universe.


Why?

Why?

Run that one by me once more? Your asking me if I say what, exactly?


What can be important than realizing that we humans create our own reality as we go along? What could be more empowering?

It's not empowering, it's philosophically crippling. I've argued this with so many people so many times it hurts my brain to push electricity down those worn and weary neurons any more. I'll compromise and give you some quote that hints at why I say what I do.

If Mr. Bernard Shaw comes up to me and says, "Will something," that is tantamount to saying, "I do not mind what you will," and that is tantamount to saying, "I have no will in the matter." You cannot admire will in general, because the essence of will is that it is particular. A brilliant anarchist like Mr. John Davidson feels an irritation against ordinary morality, and therefore he invokes will—will to anything. He only wants humanity to want something. But humanity does want something. It wants ordinary morality. He rebels against the law and tells us to will something or anything. But we have willed something. We have willed the law against which he rebels.
The worship of will is the negation of will. To admire mere choice is to refuse to choose.

 

[CartesianFart]

Get enough people to believe you, and you will be a poached egg. But thats an absurd statement you just made, so the yolks on you, buddy.

If that is a absurd statement and that reality is only real as long as enough people believe me,then tell me;is reality merely convention?

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Get enough people to believe you, and you will be a poached egg. But thats an absurd statement you just made, so the yolks on you, buddy.

How does that work? Belief doesn't change physical reality. Unless we changed the meaning of "poached egg," that would never work.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

How does that work? Belief doesn't change physical reality. Unless we changed the meaning of "poached egg," that would never work.

This is sort of how it works: Cartesian writes a book called 'Poached: My Life As An Egg Or How I Learned To Come Out Of My Shell And Not Get Fried'. The next day, he's trampled to death by a team of wild horses. We get into our time machine and go two thousand years into the future. You stop people randomly on the street and say 'Can I talk to you about CartesianFart?' and they say, 'You mean the poached egg? Sorry, I dont like discussing religion.'

 

[CartesianFart]

So much for the 'poached egg' argument.

 

[El_Machinae]

Jesus may have won for 2000 years, but he made the same critical mistake Mohammed made; he went on record as supporting the Noah story.

And just like anyone else who backs something without knowing the truth of the matter, you eventually get held to a standard of fact. Even if you have a crew obfuscating the truth, it's tough to hide the fact that the Flood never happened.