The were warned...

Next thing we know you'll be asking that Trade will require actual ships and/or wagons to move the goods and that the farther from home you have a military unit the more its maintenance cost. The Civ developers don't want us to even have to think about such complexities.


Hahaha! trade wagons and cogs! Age of Empires here we come!

I always thought it should be 2-3 upt, including non-combatents. Program the ai to favor certain combos(say GG, Cat, and longswords. or 3cats ;) ) and impose an increasing penalty for the extra units. Weaken seige against infantry/melee and let fly.

As far as naval combat goes, free counterattack(maybe slightly weakened) is a start. I have no problems with instakills, but a big one with oceanbound rafters. At the least enforce an area of control on ships(or a movement penalty for moving through an AOC).
 
Hahaha! trade wagons and cogs! Age of Empires here we come!

I kinda' liked the early versions of AOE. :blush: It does strike me as odd in Civ that if I gift a unit to a CS that unit takes X number of turns to arrive whereas if I trade, say, cotton for gems with a civ that's 25 tiles away we have our goodies on that same turn.
 
Think of the strategic depth it would add if you could not trade without a developed source of donkeys. :mischief:



Since trade in the game is conducted intranationally I prefer trained pigeons... or owls like Harry Potter... No! Whales! Bring back whales! :D
 
Never really thought about it until seeing this post, but your right I would much rather transports like the 'good ol' days'. The whole embark system seems unrealistic and leads to much less strategic decisions not only for transporting units but city placement as well.

I use to love to get the Suez Canal city tile when playing Civ IV with true starting locations! I would love a (no more then ) two tile canal improvement. Never gonna happen though.
 
Never really thought about it until seeing this post, but your right I would much rather transports like the 'good ol' days'. The whole embark system seems unrealistic and leads to much less strategic decisions not only for transporting units but city placement as well.

I use to love to get the Suez Canal city tile when playing Civ IV with true starting locations! I would love a (no more then ) two tile canal improvement. Never gonna happen though.

I agree. I didn't mind the actual transport ships. You would build the ship, sleep it, then when the units got in, it would awaken, and you would sail to your destination. With G&K, it seems even crazier to have embarking. There's no risk of instadeath for any civs anymore, unless of course maybe a battleship finds your warrior. And you get a lot more embarked movement eventually for some units than you could on land. Will G&K at least let ranged land units attack embarked units now instead of just cities being able to bombard them?
 
I agree. I didn't mind the actual transport ships. You would build the ship, sleep it, then when the units got in, it would awaken, and you would sail to your destination. With G&K, it seems even crazier to have embarking. There's no risk of instadeath for any civs anymore, unless of course maybe a battleship finds your warrior. And you get a lot more embarked movement eventually for some units than you could on land. Will G&K at least let ranged land units attack embarked units now instead of just cities being able to bombard them?

You can always bombard embarked units with ranged stuff. You have to do it manually, sure, but you can.

Also, embarkation is the best thing ever. Here's why:

Having to move invasion forces in massive slow moving ocean spanning fleets is AWESOME. Way more awesome than just mass spamming half-a-dozen units from a single transport. Having to micro dozens of transports around to load up each individual unit would remove ALL that awesome and make the game incredibly tedious.
 
In even the most persnickety, horseshoe counting strategy games I'd say 95% of what goes on is still abstracted. Choosing the pick this particular issue as a realism problem is a cheap shot born of wanting to go 'all-or-nothing' against the mechanic.

It is sufficient to say that you dislike some of the mechanical consequences of the mechanic without resorting to unnecessary additional mudslinging.

As to the idea that only people who have a micro fetish are welcome in the 4X genre, I will just choose to flat out deny it and refrain from stating my true feelings about that attitude for the thousandth time on this forum.
 
As to the idea that only people who have a micro fetish are welcome in the 4X genre, I will just choose to flat out deny it and refrain from stating my true feelings about that attitude for the thousandth time on this forum.

Um...

The Civilisation series is a Micromanagement series...

So you're basically holding back rage at thousands of the series fan's who are complaining about a lack of micromanagement because you see no reason why the whole concept of the game should be maintained for the sake of the fans...

And you wonder why you have to say it a thousand times?

Hmmm, I'm sensing a correlation between dumbing down and... no, wait, this could be construed as 'personalising'...
Moderator Action: It sure can. Such trolling is not appreciated here.
 
Um...

The Civilisation series is a Micromanagement series...

So you're basically holding back rage at thousands of the series fan's who are complaining about a lack of micromanagement because you see no reason why the whole concept of the game should be maintained for the sake of the fans...

And you wonder why you have to say it a thousand times?

Hmmm, I'm sensing a correlation between dumbing down and... no, wait, this could be construed as 'personalising'...

(Note that I'm using the term "interface" in the following argument in its broadest sense: what the player does to get the game to do what they want it to do. Not more specific definitions like "graphical interface" or anything like that. Just for the sake of clarity.)

No game worth it's salt exists for the sake of its interface. Especially not turn-based games. You can make a case with something like Starcraft vs. Starcraft II, since player actions are their own resource, and therefore making each action do less changes the way the game plays out. But in a game where you have all the time in the world to execute your actions (in SP anyways), that doesn't stack up.

I see you intend to speak for all the fans of the series, which IMO is a bit pretentious since obviously plenty of them don't agree with you. You can come back with "well true civ fans like it this way," but you don't own the definition of a true civ fan. I've loved the series since II (although I thought III was a letdown), and I'm happy that the game is less about tactics and more about strategy. It removes some of the tedium and some of the "gameyness." The way I see it, it's just making the player click a bunch of extra buttons every turn. There's no real skill to it, there's no real intelligence behind it, it's just a set of extra things that in my opinion are neither engaging nor fun. To me, it has nothing to do with dumbing it down – if there's any such thing to be had, it's found in thins like the tech tree being grossly simplified, not in the (IMO boring) parts of the game being streamlined. At the same time, I understand that some people disagree. I don't think that makes their opinions invalid on principle, and I don't think holding a view one way or the other really says anything about a person along the lines of what you hinted at and only didn't say for fear of being flagged by a mod.

As for changes to what you see as the core of the game, sometimes those changes are good things. They can (but don't always manage to) add extra levels of depth/entertainment/immersion to the gameplay. I'm not going to get into particulars here, but I think some of the major changes were good for the game and the franchise and the fanbase in general, and some were less than good or downright bad. But I don't think "well, we've always done it this way, so we better keep doing it this way" is a good way of designing, either. Even with all the changes over the games, there are still people who say that the games aren't worth buying because there hasn't been enough substantive change to justify the sticker price. (I find that hard to believe, but nevertheless, some people feel that way.) You could argue that what you say is the core of the gameplay, the fact that there's micromanagement, shouldn't change, but I would argue that 1) that's not the core of the gameplay and 2) even if it were... well, see paragraph 2.
 
I see you intend to speak for all the fans of the series, which IMO is a bit pretentious since obviously plenty of them don't agree with you.

It wasn't me who used the term 'thousands'. Of course I don't speak for *all* the fans, I was, quite obviously referring to the 'thousands' which the previous poster had referred to...

You can come back with "well true civ fans like it this way," but you don't own the definition of a true civ fan.

I'd never come back with tired trite like that, sweety. How about this analogy: Rocky was a great film, but Rocky V still had people who were perfectly happy with it...

The way I see it, it's just making the player click a bunch of extra buttons every turn. There's no real skill to it, there's no real intelligence behind it, it's just a set of extra things that in my opinion are neither engaging nor fun.

So a game where you put in the disc and press play then sit back and watch a movie would be ideal for you? Save you all the *yawntastic* button clicking? But wait, you mean it's just the 'unnecessary' button clicking? Ah, that's what it's about isn't it, deciding what's 'necessary' and what's not 'necessary'. Wouldn't it make more sense if each new sequel had MORE micromanagement rather than less? Wouldn't it though... if you actually thought about it...

but I think some of the major changes were good for the game and the franchise and the fanbase in general, and some were less than good or downright bad.

Now it appears to be you who is suggesting a knowledge of the happiness of the entire fanbase? The only thing that matter to Firaxis is the profit, it's the primary motivation for the product (again, obviously, that would be my goal too). If the sole objective is profit then the quality will decline, that is the nature of greed in an unregulated economy. Who is it who stops the flour producer cutting the flour with chalk? It's a 'regulator', not the 'market'. Actually, I'll stop there, perhaps I'm getting too 'detailed' in my response...

But I don't think "well, we've always done it this way, so we better keep doing it this way" is a good way of designing, either. Even with all the changes over the games, there are still people who say that the games aren't worth buying because there hasn't been enough substantive change to justify the sticker price.

I seriously doubt someone would release the EXACT SAME game more than once, no, um... obviously. And, yes, the game is still the same game it ever was at it's core, just with better graphics, someone with good knowledge of the previous games can jump in and say 'same old AI' with as much accuracy as someone who can jump in and say 'tech leads are a good advantage', because it's the 'same' game, presented differently; in this case, presented... dumbed down...
 
Cheers to that Lyon. It's always a bit irritating to hear someone commandeering an abstract "thousands of the series fans" as hating a development as if there weren't thousands of the series fans clapping over the same development. Personally, I like embarkation and I'm a long term fan. In previous Civ games, late game naval warfare always struck me as one of my least favourite parts of the game, and where I *loved* micromanaging a host of mid-sized stacks of doom across terrain types in combat, tinkering with terrain modifactions, and managing what each city was focused on. I'm hardly someone who dislikes micromanagement, but, in each previous Civ game I've dreaded the point where I had to hop continents with an army - it was a bunch of button clicking that got in the way of what I actually wanted to do. Civ V's treatment of troop transport appeals to me more than any previous iteration. Trying to paint those who prefer Civ V naval treatment to previous Civ's treatment as people who are trying to streamline the game away from a micromanage focus is just absurd. Seriously Butter, at the point you're throwing things like this out in response to a post like Lyon's:
:
"So a game where you put in the disc and press play then sit back and watch a movie would be ideal for you?"

It's time to take a step back. Perhaps try and convince him that the "button clicking" he's talking about is really so necessary. To me, previous Civ's naval systems were basically necessary evils I had to deal with in order to do what I really wanted to be doing - which, as it happens, was a different type of micromanagement. Water in Civ is like less interesting land that one has far, far less to do on - I'd prefer to keep the focus off it as much as possible, and further increase micromanagement in more interesting areas. I'm sure you disagree, and that's dandy - I'm not going to pretend like you're alone in that, or you're somehow striving to ruin the series with your preference.

Actually, my previous favourite Civ type game for "naval" warfare was SMAC, and that was in large part because it gave me an alternative to having to build a bunch of transports and do the load/unload dance. Locusts of Chiron, wahoo! Or, if you wanted to be in the water, there was actually a lot to do there other than just making it some big combat zone where most of the things to do in the game were functional non-entities. Water cities were a hoot - but, obviously, not something they could do in a proper Civ game.

So, please try not to aggrandize your personal distaste for a feature into some general opinion of Civ fans. There are some interesting posts that make it clear to me why some people dislike embarkation, but I just don't agree with the sentiment behind them. I am obviously far from alone.
 
Now it appears to be you who is suggesting a knowledge of the happiness of the entire fanbase?

Nope. You're ignoring two critically important words: "I think." That seems to be the general difference in the way we approach this. You seem to imply you know what is likely unknowable and lay claim to what is not yours – such as the example of a "true" civ fan. I acknowledge my preferences and opinions for what they are, and make it amply clear that I recognize the limits of my experience and the conclusions I draw from them.

Having made my point, however, I'm inclined to say that with your general misinterpretation of my points and misrepresentation of my arguments, which seem to approach the deliberate (no, I'm not suggesting you put the disk in and watch a movie, and I do not believe someone who was interested in constructive conversation would have insinuated as such), makes me hesitant to engage with you further on the subject. Good day. :king:
 
Nope. You're ignoring two critically important words: "I think."

I'm afraid the irony is that you 'think' you speak for fans whereas I was simply replying to someone else's insinuation of 'thousands' of fans...

That seems to be the general difference in the way we approach this. You seem to imply you know what is likely unknowable and lay claim to what is not yours – such as the example of a "true" civ fan. I acknowledge my preferences and opinions for what they are, and make it amply clear that I recognize the limits of my experience and the conclusions I draw from them.

Would you like a shovel to help you dump all those words in my mouth? I've never once mentioned what a 'true' civ fan is. Not once. Utterly... unbelievable... for you to push that line. Have you no other course of action to reply to me other than made up trash? I'm afraid the Civfanatics forum doesn't come with an easy one-size-fits-all auto-reply button :(

Having made my point, however, I'm inclined to say that with your general misinterpretation of my points and misrepresentation of my arguments, which seem to approach the deliberate (no, I'm not suggesting you put the disk in and watch a movie, and I do not believe someone who was interested in constructive conversation would have insinuated as such), makes me hesitant to engage with you further on the subject. Good day.

So you agree that removing 'all' the 'micromanagement' would be silly? And yet, removing 'most' of it is not? Perhaps you wouldn't have to be 'misunderstood' if you replied in 'detail' rather than just saying 'less is more' type bland uninformative cookie cutter fanboy crap? Why is removing the naval transport element of the civ series 'better'? Aside from 'less hassle' that is... And no I don't want an 'it's more realistic' garbage reply either. What do I want to know? I want to know why having less of something in a sequel is 'better' than having *more* of something.

Judging by your hasty exit from the discussion upon the arrival of 'detailed' conversation I can only assume you had no idea you'd get a response which required you to 'micromanage' a reply...

Moderator Action: This post is overall not suitable for CFC.
 
Oops, I'll pop back in momentarily because I honestly did do you a disservice by not mentioning what I was referring to by the true fans remark. Here it is:

So you're basically holding back rage at thousands of the series fan's who are complaining about a lack of micromanagement because you see no reason why the whole concept of the game should be maintained for the sake of the fans...

You didn't use the word "true," but you did draw the conclusion that "fans = those who want the mechanics to stay the same." While in truth there are plenty of fans of the series who don't feel that way. The conclusion, then, is that those people who do not feel that way cannot be fans, and that you have say over which camp is legitmate. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's the impression that statement leaves, because there isn't much wiggle room. The same can be said in response to the first point you made in your latest reply:

BUTTERCUP said:
I'm afraid the irony is that you 'think' you speak for fans whereas I was simply replying to someone else's insinuation of 'thousands' of fans...

Having said that, and your last post not having really changed my mind, I'll bow out again. :king:
 
but you did draw the conclusion that "fans = those who want the mechanics to stay the same."

Jesus H...

I did not nor did I ever say fans=anydamnthing...

I would prefer it if you quoted the line I was responding to when you analyse my use of 'thousands of fans', this may aid your ability to 'decipher' my plain English...
 
Buttercup, one thing to consider about you referring to thousands of fans. You say this:

"It wasn't me who used the term 'thousands'. Of course I don't speak for *all* the fans, I was, quite obviously referring to the 'thousands' which the previous poster had referred to..."

But what the poster you're referring to actually said was:

"I will just choose to flat out deny it and refrain from stating my true feelings about that attitude for the thousandth time on this forum."

The guy who you claim started talking about thousands of fans didn't, and instead more or less said he didn't want to repeat it a thousand times. If you want to talk about deciphering plain English, that's pretty obviously hyperbole for "It's just not worth repeating it a bunch of times" or something to that effect. No claim was made in his post about some mass of fans believing this or that. That came out in your post.

Take a step back. Lyon pretty much nailed it on the button. Lots of (Gatsyby and Wiseman come to mind) have given pretty good cases for old style transporting without making it personal. The "we want transports" position has merit - talk about that. This forum has proven to directly affect Civ development in the past - time to start constructively getting your word in Civ VI. For Civ V, embarkation is part of the game. A lot of us like it, and not because we're trying to get rid of all that pesky micromanaging - rather, we just don't want to spend time micromanaging elements of the game we don't particularly enjoy. Or at least that's me.

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of a "built" ocean trade route system put in... Some way to access deep sea resources and establish trade routes that you have to "build" and maintain, and can be actively disrupted or "destroyed" by enemy ships - make the oceans something I care about, not just something that gets in the way of what I do care about. If I need to "build" a navigation route to access a great fishing spot, or initiate lucrative trade with Athens, and someone else can come in and disrupt my "built" trade route, then all of the sudden I care about the big pointless blue expanse a lot more. As it stands... Outside of some coastal resources, all it does is keep me from the land where I actually do things.
 
The guy who you claim started talking about thousands of fans didn't

They most certainly did. If someone has to repeat something a thousand times on civ'fan'atics them I'm pretty damn safe in assuming they are repeating the same thing to thousands of 'fans'.

No claim was made in his post about some mass of fans believing this or that. That came out in your post.

Oh really, so the poster was being exasperated at a non-mass of fans then? Hyperbole? Yes, that would be what I was responding to.

Take a step back. Lyon pretty much nailed it on the button.

You take a step back. No he didn't, he said very little...

Lots of (Gatsyby and Wiseman come to mind) have given pretty good cases for old style transporting without making it personal.

Their case was so damn good that they lost?

The "we want transports" position has merit - talk about that.

Um... isn't it a bit late? Hasn't the horse already bolted?

This forum has proven to directly affect Civ development in the past - time to start constructively getting your word in Civ VI.

LOL.

For Civ V, embarkation is part of the game.

You don't say...

A lot of us like it, and not because we're trying to get rid of all that pesky micromanaging - rather, we just don't want to spend time micromanaging elements of the game we don't particularly enjoy. Or at least that's me.

which is qualified by:

As it stands... Outside of some coastal resources, all it does is keep me from the land where I actually do things.

Have you ever heard of a Pangea map? I believe you already had that choice with or without 'embarkation'...

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of a "built" ocean trade route system put in... Some way to access deep sea resources and establish trade routes that you have to "build" and maintain, and can be actively disrupted or "destroyed" by enemy ships - make the oceans something I care about, not just something that gets in the way of what I do care about. If I need to "build" a navigation route to access a great fishing spot, or initiate lucrative trade with Athens, and someone else can come in and disrupt my "built" trade route, then all of the sudden I care about the big pointless blue expanse a lot more.

So micromanaging 20%-40% of the world's tiles for the sake of a few extra gold is an awesome idea but the concept of making a vessel to transport armies from A to B is somehow a pain in the butt?

What were the words you use? 'something that gets in the way of what I do care about', 'pointless blue expanse', 'all it does is keep me from the land where I actually do things'...

Again...

Ever heard of a Pangea map?

As for the merits of the trade what-not-thingy, in previous civs you could block trade by positioning ships in the close-to-shore trade route and declaring war, this ended once a tech had been discovered which rendered all the ocean safe to travel in. As for harvesting deep sea resources then there were/are options to build Oil Rigs, Commercial Platforms. As for improvements to 'trade', what you suggest is not so different from Civ 2 where you would create Trade Wagons which established land trade routes, you're simply moving the concept into the sea, which would have been an awesome advance to Civ 2 for Civ3, what a shame they just ditched the land route wagons for Civ3, doesn't bode too well for your idea I'm afraid... but well done for staying so positive...
 
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