[BTS] The Worst Leader and Civilization

[sampsa]

I like Hammurabi alot!

Easily top 50 leader for me too.

 

[Hesha]

Good idea, but i like to comment on picks so will post the 2nd part here i think.

Either way - I'd just copy over your responses to the poll in that case. Just to help me out, if possible at all, do break your ties!

 

[Anysense]

Pictures in civ Illustrated seem to be comming on and off all the time.

Had not thought about the fact that most agg leaders start with hunting, curious!
You do have Hammy to join Toku in that agg-warrior club though.
I like Hammurabi alot!

I forgot! UU is irrelevant but tech and traits are fine. I need to try him in one of my space games. I think he will do well on marathon.

 

[drewisfat]

What really drags Charlie down is that he starts with a scout - can't steal workers.
Curiosly, Tokugava is the only aggressive leader to start with a warrior. Did developers think that starting with a warrior with free combat promotion was too much of an advantage?

I would say certainly not. Let's remember, this game was expected to be played with goody huts. Scout starts are certainly better than warrior starts if there are goody huts. Starting with hunting tech was decent, it's turning off goody huts that made it hot garbage.
And for the record, I still prefer scout starts to warrior starts. It's just no longer enough of an adv to save hunting from being a weak starter. My opening phase:
1. I want to find my neighbor AIs ASAP for the tech reduction (or to confirm that I'm isolated). Ideally by t5 so I haven't spent beakers and barbs aren't a threat.
2. Then I want to determine where my 2nd city will be since its distance and resources will determine my immediate tech path and build order.
3. Fog bust.

1. Scouts get through phase 1 quicker / more consistently before t5.
2. Phase 2 is risky. If my first unit gets hurt by a barb it will be delayed. If it gets killed by a barb it will be significantly delayed and the barb presence will start snowballing. This is the first big risk for a game beginning to go awry. Scouts let me avoid this risk because I can be patient and move them one space per turn while retaining a flight square. Only Panthers are a threat to a scout here, and animals don't last very long.
3. Typically you have some region that's jungled/forested and regions that are more open. Warriors can be a little brave moving through forest/jungle b.c of defense penalties. But scouts are better for the open regions and avoiding combat altogether. Since you often get both of these regions, but are only building warriors, it's nice to have that initial scout deal with the open region.

Worker steal is a valid option that comes with its own pros and cons and of course risk. In my own games between thinking it's worth the complication and actually executing the steal, I perform a worker steal in a minority of starts. As a result, I value the consistency of scouts more than the option of worker stealing with my starting unit.

 

[Anysense]

Nice to see someone arguing scouts' case, I thought I was the only one who saw any value in them - other than hut hunting that is. This is all fine when you play a typicall normal speed game with barbs and not aggressive AI. In HoF, however, no worker stolen before you could build one = next map. Of course, priorities depend on many factors. In AP games huts are essential. But workers are just as essential as free techs, so to beat those records you need ridiculous amount of luck, like getting Mysticism from one hut, BW from another and then stealing a worker on t10. In bigger games, where you play further than just building the Apostolic Palace, lucky huts become less decisive but several early free workers are the cornerstone of a good game.

 

[jmas]

Slight necro to ask: In Worldbuilder can you take away your starting techs? If so, has anyone tried using an RNG to choose 2 random starting techs (of the 6 standard starting techs) for yourself at game start? (So: use your RNG to select your 2 random techs, take away any others that you started with, and from those 2 random techs add the ones to yourself you didn't have.)

Seems like this could spice things up, eh?

I mean if nothing else, it would be a new thing for people to complain about when they get, for ex., Creative along with Mysticism ( although @ArchGhost's very detailed post on page 1 of this thread seems to hint this wouldn't be bad 100% of the time).

 

[rah]

In Worldbuilder can you take away your starting techs?

Surprised you asked this when it takes about 20 seconds to test. (the answer is YES)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Curiosly, Tokugava is the only aggressive leader to start with a warrior. Did developers think that starting with a warrior with free combat promotion was too much of an advantage?

This topic will be forever-necro and never die. It should be stickied. (aside: Hammurabi is also aggressive without hunting). There are a limited number of traits and starting techs. "X is the only leader with YZ combination" is all coincidence probably?

Cheese on lower difficulties:
- Charlemagne is the only protective leader that starts with hunting.
- Stalin is the only aggressive leader that starts with mining.

Personal: I get upset when I random into Isabella of Spain in a non-coastal start. Do I build three warriors before the first worker or something?

 

[King Younk]

If you start with myst or hunting you are at a disadvantage.
Likewise with fishing if you don't happen to find yourself at a coastal start.

Then the PRO trait is bad in almost all situations.
So, Toku, Charly, Saladin comes to mind.

Regarding what traits are good, I have more and more come to the realization that it's very much dependant on playing style and ability to leverage the traits.

I know this is 9 years old but....

If you start with hunting, you can send out an extra scout or two, which can mean an extra technology or two, so definitely not bad.

 

[Lennier]

Only if you’re playing with huts below Emperor. The AI start with a scout and a couple of archers, so they’ll get more hits than the human player. Scouts are more likely to die to animals than warriors, and warriors can worker steal.