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[BTS] The Worst Leader and Civilization

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hesha, Dec 13, 2019.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    There is all kinds of magic you can do with SPI.
    Whipping units (in your capital while in burocracy for +50% bonus hammers too), then leaving the units in the queue and releasing them with vassalage is just one obvious example.
    Or whip some needed infrastructure (say barracks) with org religion, then throw the overflow through theocracy boosted units.

    The next 5 turns, you spend in serfdom clearing jungle while cities fill up their queues with a few hammers into a xbow, a mace, a pike, a treb and a catapult. ^_^

    In some ways, it's better to describe SPI as a trait that gives you more civics than just the ability to swap between them.
     
  2. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Or in short: SPI = the best trait for fun fun fun ;)
    Switching things often keeps games interesting, also keeps those grey cells busy.
     
  3. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    It does spoil you terribly, though. I don't think there is a trait I miss more after having played it in a previous game. Maybe CRE, because not having to worry about border popping at all is pretty sweet, too.
     
  4. SnipedSoul

    SnipedSoul Chieftain

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    SPI is the best trait, IMO. It grants so much flexibility in civics and diplo.
    • Switch into someone's religion and favorite civic when they ask and it's not hard to get them to friendly for easy tech trades.
    • SPI dramatically changes the way I generate GPP. Rather than dedicating a city to trickle out scientists over time, I work max food in a few cities and run no specialists. Once the cities are properly fattened up I switch to caste + pacifism and run max specialists to the point of starvation (generally only work tiles with at least 4 food during this phase).
    • I tend to transform my lands into workshops, windmills, and watermills in the renaissance period. This requires a TON of worker labor, so switching to serfdom is very helpful.
    I love SPI so much that I almost refuse to play without it. I thought I was addicted to CRE, but that was before I started to make full use of SPI.
     
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  5. Wrathful

    Wrathful Warlord

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    Spiritual also helps when an AI plots on you early. For example, if Shaka sends an army after you, you can switch into his religion and beg for a peace treaty. Or you can switch into someone else's religion and bribe them on Shaka. At the very least, you can switch into military civics and whip out some defense. Of course, non-spiritual leaders can do these things too, but those anarchy turns really hurt in the early game...

    I've seen Churchill, the Celts, Isabella, Saladin, Charlemagne, and Tokugawa named as the worst leader. I can see why the Celts are voted the worst, but they both have good trait combos and a solid UU. I've never understood where the Churchill hatred comes from - he has good starting techs, one strong trait, and a great unique unit. The Isabella hate baffles me even more. Sure, she has bad starting techs, but her traits are excellent, her UB is good, and her UU is top-tier.

    Then there's Saladin, and I agree that he's pretty bad. But he has one good trait and a good UB. And yes, Madrassas are good, mainly because libraries are built so commonly anyway. +2 culture and 2 priest slots won't always be useful, but they can definitely come in handy at times. Even the UU isn't completely useless. They can provide support during cannon rushes. Regular knights are often unavailable due to a lack of horses.

    That leaves Charlemagne and Toku, and I think it's a tie between the two. I personally dislike Toku more. I don't see the allure of Samurais - two first strikes won't do much against longbows in castles, after all. The shale plant isn't bad I suppose. But Charlie's UB is just as good in my opinion. I tend to rate IMP higher than AGG, though they're close. AGG warriors are cool, but if barbarians are a major threat, teching Archery is the only truly safe defense (aside from finding copper or horses, but you can't count on those). IMP helps with securing crucial spots before the AI and also with gifting cities to dangerous warmongers.

    It's worth mentioning that Toku is one of the few leaders in the game who starts far away from Animal Husbandry, Archery, and Bronze Working. While starting with Myst definitely drags down Charlie a lot, at least he won't get completely screwed over by an inland plains cow start. Imagine playing that with Toku.
     
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  6. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Wow, so many SPI supporters! ( I also am, but more in real life.....) Will try to play a Spiri-flexi-active-game one of these weeks. I still am convinced that Arabia and Celts are quite weak, at least for how I use to play, but this is certainly different for everyone. The other weak trait on my memory is CHARISMATIC (except Iso, Semi-Iso and AW), that's why Brennus, Boudica, ... I just saw in many games that trading for happiness became possible when the happy cap was exploding while in the expanding phase, unhappy faces are whipped away for settlers/workers/granaries/libraries. It depends on the map, the tradings possibilities and on the level you play.
    I have come to see that Brennus and Churchill are generally strong when played by AI (Boudica almost never). After having observed many of the AIs via WB, I have drawn the conclusion that AIs do not handle Happiness at all, they suffer regularly from anger despite being on NOBLE level. So CHA should help them quite a lot. Also they are not as smart as the human player when it comes to resource trades and they refuse to trade out of pride. Human players on the other hand have more options to avoid unhappiness, or not?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  7. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Charly for me only when playing unrestricted leaders and getting a weak civ also (yes, you can get weaker than Holy Rome :), as I really like his unique stuff. But he is extremely behind long time and catches up only later. Toku has ok starting techs and a solid UU that neutralizes the Longbows first strikes (they survive city attacks more often, you can attack w/o siege, if there is a castle, you need siege though) and if you play overall aggressively, he is not bad, you can keep your research on a high level due to conquest gold (even razing one or two bad cities becomes an option).

    A decision for ONE civ is not easy, I would still chose Saladin, his uniques are not bad, but you can easily play without them. It happened even to me twice that I was DoWed spontaniously (without plotting, without stack), just because my Madrasa produced too much culture and started boxing in the other guy (it was Peter and Wang...). Going Culture for sure, he can bulb more than of the late religions and build shrines, temples, monasteries, cathedrals, etc....

    Isabella is situational, but in general she is not even a candidate for worst 10 leaders. Churchill also not my favorite, would put him into worst 10 guys, he can share a place with Mao there, but I had 2 ok games with him (maybe good land?).
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I used to dislike Cha alot, seeing it as a weak alternative to agg, but that you reach a promotion at 4xp and 8xp instead of 5 and 10 is really good. So much easier to get really strong units. (Especially so with seige)
    Also, agg does little for mounted units (and seige), so cha helps out more with horse archers and/or cuirs.
     
  9. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Churchill is certainly in bottom 10 for me, though he is not Toku/Charlie-tier. Isabella easily in top half. Chinese leaders don't have good traits, but best starting techs (agri+mining) and good UU saves a bit. Bottom quarter.
    Depends. Say you start with two easily accessible :)-resources like ivory+gold, then CHA is not that great. But sometimes you have a complete lack of :)-resources and can't even get anything via trade... Then CHA is very valuable.
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Drafted rifles can often be to weak to do anything useful when you hit targets with say infantry.
    But pro/cha powered redcoats are a whole different story.
    Hats of for Winnie!
     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    And as @sampsa says, the extra +1 (or if you want +2) extra happines from Cha can be extremly useful early on if you are severely squeezed for happines.

    @Wrathful inland plains cows start with Toku... That must be a candidate for the most painfull thing ever. My settler and warrior would get some excersise in such a start. :)
     
  12. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    As for the Chinese. A good example for how a civ loses its value while climbing up in difficulty. On EMP, you can easily oracle MC and reach your Cho-Ku-Nus incredibly early. Then you can take out even 2 civs without siege and open the doors for Conq/Dom very early. On IMM, a pure CKN-rush happens only once in a while, and on Deity, I wouldn't even try that. Starting Techs perfect, yes, the only civ IIRC.
     
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  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I personally like Char a lot, and consider it a higher tier trait. I offer no scientific proof of this finding, but I sure enjoy having it when I do. Even if not squeezed for happiness, it means more pain free whippage. Definitely nice when paired with another nice trait like IND (DeG) or FIN (Hanny). Also, you can get a Woody II warrior very quickly.

    Bad mouthing Izzy is sacrilege :D ..although starting techs are not ideal.
     
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  14. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    I did plenty of those on deity, one was in a HoF Gaunlet game too :)

    Chokus are underrated, feels like it..they are like siege with good stats (extra first strikes) and have no counter-unit against them other than mounted.
    Regular 1mp stacks are often 50% siege and 50% protection, with Chokus every unit in the stack can fight well.

    Overall i rate Qin highly, there's def. some synergy between IND (Oracle for MC, Chokus), great starting techs (easier to spend early beakers on Oracle), cheap forges (MC way), and even PRO adds something for Chokus.
    Probably top 10.
     
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  15. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    I love Izzy. Cuirassiers with +50% vs melee and defensive bonuses? Sign me up! Taking out a fortified mace/pike becomes so much less painful. When it gets to the point you can't continue with just Conquistadors, her UB allows you to pump out CR3 cannons that open up even the most well defended cities.
     
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  16. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I don't think Churchill is that bad, it's just that the others are better. ;) Same with Qin. I suggest you (mainly Krikav and Fippy) to try to put all the leaders into order. I guess the order should be about expected winrate on deity/normal/fractal.
     
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  17. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Personally, I rate CKN very highly, there were times when I played only China because of them. Besides their great extra bonus, they seem to survive even fights against garrisoned archers at 35% odds quite regularly (maybe due to first strikes). They perfectly showcase how much the value of even only slightly pre-damaged units decreases.
    I just seem to not get them early enough or to be surrounded by PRO/CRE neighbours or by those who build Longbows fast enough.
    The ideal rush targets are those who build tons of (unique) melee units and tech only a little. I met them only rarely in my games.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  18. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Would be a nice ongoing research project, based on "hard" facts. I have only vague ideas of who is really good based on who is regularly under the Top 3 AI's (after myself occupying the first place of course!)
     
  19. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Okay let's try ;)

    1. HC (no explanation needed, boring unless for HoF)
    2. Gandhi (outstanding traits + fast worker)
    3 + 4 RamRam & Hatty (similar strong traits + WC)
    5. Darius (Eco King + Immortals)
    6. Lizzy (Eco Queen + Redcoats)
    7. Izzy (her specials are just so good, only starting techs hurt)
    8. Mansa (strong traits and an overall good package)
    9 + 10 DeG & Louis (starting techs, traits, useful UU)
    11. Pericles (also traits, super synergy between them)
    12. Peter (also traits, might be higher without hunting and better UU)
    13. Willy (a new players dream)
    14. Pacal (traits & always available UU)
    15. Qin (guess you were right, had him too high with top 10 ;))
    16. Biz (we get stuff built faaaast)
    17. Hannibal (interesting and nice specials)
    18. AC (Praets are good but not awesome imo, forum almost useless, IMP average)
    19. Lincoln (i love his traits, okay starting techs)
    20. SB (Pro drags him down, but Phi is great and dogs reliable barb defense)

    Will continue later, maybe something like that for Top 20?
    Ofc it's difficult ranking between let's say Biz & Hanni, i tried going with instinct.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  20. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    Et tu, Fippy?
    The crazy ranking of #18 is bad enough, but you had to go and libel Princeps Civitatis with "ORG".

    Praets are a free win button. War chariots may be faster, but they require super early horse instead of relatively early iron, so you will press the free win button less often. And if somehow you mess up with Praets, you have a huge window of opportunity and IMP will give you a fast GG so you'll get a second chance. If early aggression isn't relevant, there's a great chance that IND and/or fishing as a starting tech will be relevant. Covers all bases. Can't lose. I make retaliatory list:
    1. AC
    2. HC
    3. Gandhi
    ......
    n-1. Tokugawa
    n. Izzy. Praets conquered most of the known world. Only thing conquistadors ever conquered was the Aztecs, and that was with a huge tech adv. Talk about a trash unit. Better to just hide in your special castles.

    *edit* I see that you called mousies good units. This must be considered. I may have overreacted. Izzy's better than Toku. But not better than Burger King. I mean landschneckts are the hard counter to Conqs!
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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