[BTS] The Worst Leader and Civilization

Nice list, My. Pretty much agree with everything, but maybe with some ordering on a few leaders. I think Lincoln is pretty strong on traits alone..I'd rate him higher than AC at least, probably at least on par with Biz.

The one guy though I think that is often underrated is Sury. Uniques aside...meh...his trait combo is very strong and he excels at getting off to fast starts both production and research wise. I just always have very good games when I play him. Starting techs are ok and at least open up options.

Like I used to always favor Pacal, but over many games played I tend to have more success with Sury. Ofc, Pacal has the resourceless UU which is a lifesaver on Deity.

I'd say really that leaders 11-20 are almost interchangeable in their ranking..not a huge gap in between them. (edit: Well actually Peri is really very good indeed..synergy with pretty nice UB too...great for insta whipping in captured cities)
 
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I think I have pericles at least on top 3. Anyone who has ever done a construction attack with elephants with him should know why. :)
AH -> Writing -> Super cheap libraries! -> tech HBR, bulb math -> tech construction chop like crazy.

Oh, you have a half price odeon to help with whip anger btw!
Oh, half of the cities you capture already have odeons inside them, free borderpops and lots of happines!
 
Major Tom said:
Mansa Musa. Playing him as human prevent you to have him as an AI in your game.
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Is that really a problem though? He can be really helpful if you can create good circumstances for it.
 
@earthly I second that!
Can't have a moron that trades rifling to his worst enemy and my target in the game.
Pretty useless vassal too, as everyone tends to hate him, and the fact that he stops teching for you when you need it the most, and he goes full culture while you can't attack him.

Can't deny that it's nice trading leading up to his demise though... And the cities are nice too. :)
 
Nice list, Fippy. Looks good to me as for the staff, but I would swap several places.

From my exp, I would definitely swap Mansa with Darius (Top 12, Immortals and ORG are both very situational). Mansa even Top 3, because he has no single weakness (starting techs perfect + UU/UB very useful, just like the traits, if SPI is as good as promised :)

Pericles + Augustus + Willem higher & both Egypts lower, Ramsees Top 5 (great to get the Mids with), Hatchy Top 12. Isabella also Top 12.

Julius + Suleiman could probably belong to the top 20 too (Suley also strong attributes in any field), I rate them higher than Qin + Peter (starts with hunting, specials not really needed).

I also remember great games with Sury, but his overall combo is not objectively strong enough for Top 20.
 
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drewisfat said:
Et tu, Fippy?
The crazy ranking of #18 is bad enough, but you had to go and libel Princeps Civitatis with "ORG".
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:lol: Oops, sorry AC..did put IMP instead.

@lymond Guess i have to value UUs high enuf too, and found it difficult putting Lincoln above Praets since AC also has good traits.
Leaders like Sury or Ottos could ofc be put in too, it's just that Sury i.e. has 2 good traits like many others, but nothing else (and also starts with hunting).

@krikav Peri top 3 looks like a stretch, if we questions leaders with super specials like Izzy for her starting techs, i also have to downgrade him :)

@Tobi Biz = Bismarck.
Darius belongs there imo, Immortals are very strong units. Apothecary also useful.
Mansa is very good, but Skirmishers are sometimes not used much in regular deity games (need hunting + archery, always annoying),
10% gold from Mints counts as average UB imo.

War Chariots are just so good that i cannot put leaders who have them and good traits + starting techs lower, personally.
First choice (minus boring HC) for HoF too.
Peter very often gets overlooked, but you have one of the best trait combos possible with him (PHI useful whole game, EXP for a faster start), and Cossacks got nerfed but they laugh at Cavs or Cuirs now and AIs like to spam those. UB good for space race, i think.
 
I seem to recall Lain mentioning once that if he had to win a game with his life on the line, he would pick Pacal or Sitting Bull for guaranteed barb defense (assuming Huayana wasn't allowed).

No one has mentioned him yet but I feel that Shaka belongs in the top 20. Good starting techs, strong traits, a decent-good UU, and probably the best UB aside from the terrace. I always have a good time when I play him. Let's not forget that playing as him prevents an AI Shaka from ending your game on Turn 50...
 
Wow, looks like this little thread of mine is really taking off! I've taken the liberty to create a little survey, but I'm somewhat hesitant to post the link here, because I don't know what kind or lurkers might come and enter ridiculous answers. So I'm going to PM the link to those people I know to be serious players. If you are serious and didn't get a PM from me, just ping me and I will add you to the list!

I will share the results here, of course!

EDIT: I just updated the survey with all the additional info on the leaders (tech, traits, UU/UB), hope none of you had already started it!
 
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sampsa said:
Is that really a problem though? He can be really helpful if you can create good circumstances for it.
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No, not really a problem. It was an attempt to sprite up thread and think outside the box; What is your favourite opponents and turn that list upside down.

Sorry for cluttering up thread but reading the same arguments over and over again made me fall asleep.
 
Sorry, won't participate in the query, it's just too abstract and too difficult. :D
I like more the type of discussion where the focus is on how to leverage a trait/leader/civ in the best way.
 
Yeh, it's not easy. But I think it's also useful. It's much easier to say "this leader must be top 20" than to actually put all leaders into order and see if you really think a particular leader is better than 32 other leaders. Of course, in the end it does not matter. :lol: What matters if you can get the best out of what you are given.
 
Weakest civ might be Celts. Two worst starting techs with Mysticism and Hunting which ensure a slow start. UU is a Gallic Sword which isn't that strong unless you play highlands maps (and even then G3 is only easy to get as Boudica). Basically it rarely ever gives you a decisive edge. Dun is a UB that gives Guerilla I promos to Archers/Gunpowder which is a defensive bonus like a weaker Pro trait. Useless in most games. Holy Rome is very weak as well with the same awful starting techs but at least they have a rocking UB with the Rathaus so I'd give them a slight edge for civ.

Weakest leader is all about traits. Toku is one of the weakest and a popular pick but he's still Agg and that's a good trait. I'd probably lean towards Charlemagne. Overall if we combined civ + leader (no unrestricted) then Charlemagne of Holy Rome might win. Or Brennus of Celtia. At that point it's like everything is pretty much bottom of the pile but do I want Rathaus or Cha trait for +1 happy (+2 with monuments). I'd probably lean towards the happiness bonus as being useful in more games.
 
Can anyone see pictures in Civ Illustrated #1?

What really drags Charlie down is that he starts with a scout - can't steal workers.

Curiosly, Tokugava is the only aggressive leader to start with a warrior. Did developers think that starting with a warrior with free combat promotion was too much of an advantage?
 
Pictures in civ Illustrated seem to be comming on and off all the time. :(

Had not thought about the fact that most agg leaders start with hunting, curious!
You do have Hammy to join Toku in that agg-warrior club though.
I like Hammurabi alot!
 
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