They've certainly never happened on anything like the scale that they currently occur in though, would you agree to that? And with the sort of weaponry which now exists? Also, if you make a claim like "it sounds like tribal warfare throughout history" you kind of have to back that up with some sort of evidence that this sort of thing used to happen in tribal warfare.
The Worst War Ever?
- Thread starter attackfighter
- Start date
CELTICEMPIRE
Zulu Conqueror
I definitely wouldn't want to be a German or Japanese soldier in WWII.
Bugfatty300
Buddha Squirrel
The American Civil War seems to have been pretty miserable. The mortality rate for soldiers was double that of WWI. POW camps with worse mortality rates than those of the Japanese during WWII. Then for last two years there were miles of miserable muddy trenches. Medieval treatment of wounds and disease compared to those in use by WWI. That is if you were fortunate enough to get treatment at all because there was a good chance you would have been left were you fell either because either the the armies had moved on without a proper casualty recovery or because no one would have found you in the sparsely populated 'wilderness' areas where many battles were fought.
This.
Or to be on the loosing side of a complete massacre. What were Iraqi troops feeling during Desert Storm? Or the Poles during September 1939. "We're outgunned! We're being annihilated!" The Japanese on Iwo Jima.
Miroslav I
Warlord
Another one that awaits on me...
So far WWI was the worst, but if I lived in that time it must be I participated in that war, too...
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
The Desert Storm was somehow much more one-sided than Poland 1939 or Iwo Jima.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Yeah, the Axis invasion of Poland wasn't entirely one-sided, at least at first. Defeat was only absolutely guaranteed when the Soviets invaded.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Also in Desert Storm Coalition suffered negligible casualties, contrary to Germans in Poland 1939.
Desert Storm can more be compared to the German invasion of the Balkans (especially Yugoslavia) in 1941 in terms of one-sidedness and casualties.
Desert Storm can more be compared to the German invasion of the Balkans (especially Yugoslavia) in 1941 in terms of one-sidedness and casualties.
Well, Poland would have fallen at any rate, assuming that France and Britain didn't launch a counter-invasion, which they showed no signs of doing. The Soviet invasion certainly sped things up in the East though. Possibly by as much as three months, considering the suitability of some of the terrain in Eastern Poland - now Western Belarus - for defensive war.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Yes I agree, maybe by less than three months though. Also don't forget about now Western Ukraine.
Oh, I doubt they would have held out an extra three months, but I was bringing up the most extreme outside possibility. And thank you, I had forgotten about the Western Ukraine.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Maybe even some isolated resistance nests could held for as much as 3 months, not necessarily in Eastern Poland but also some resistance nest in Central Poland - namely Warsaw. Warsaw could held much longer than it did in reality. Until Warsaw surrendered on 27-28 September (ceasefire started on 27 in early afternoon; capitiulation was signed on 28), the Germans only managed to capture part of the most outer line of defences (the line consisting of old, Russian forts built in 19th century - most of them were not very suitable for defence in WW2 conditions) and part of the city's suburbs. Warsaw could resist for much longer, but that would mean enormous cost in human lifes - especially civilians. Warsaw surrendered by the end of September because further fight was considered pointless.
Real streetfighting in densely built environment didn't really start until capitulation - there were mainly just combats for Forts and in the suburbs.
I made a map showing the German assault on Warsaw (and defensive lines of the defenders) in last days of September:
When it comes to defended forts, basically until the capitulation of Warsaw Germans managed to capture only:
In operational area of German XI Corps (18, 19 Inf. divisions + 24 Inf. division in reserve + mass of non-divisional artillery and Pioniere):
- Fort II
- Fort II a
In operational area of XIII Corps (31, 10, 46 Inf. divisions + 3 Leichte division in reserve + mass of non-divisional artillery and Pioniere):
- Fort "Mokotów"
- Fort "Piłsudskiego" (= "Legionów" = "Tsche")
- Fort IX (= "Czerniaków" = "Dąbrowskiego")
Germans also captured Fort "Szczęśliwice" ("Tscha") - but without combats IIRC - Poles attempted to recapture it several times.
Also Fort "Bema" was fought over - Germans didn't manage to seize it until capitulation, despite numerous attempts.
Fort III "Blizne" was captured by Germans early during the battle of Warsaw - later Poles recaptured it on 23 September (they also attempted to recapture it on 18 and 19 September but those attempts failed). Later one Polish platoon with 1 HMG stationed there until at least 26 September.
In operational area of German I Corps Poles didn't defend the old Russian forts at all but organized defence immediately in urban area of Praga district.
Real streetfighting in densely built environment didn't really start until capitulation - there were mainly just combats for Forts and in the suburbs.
I made a map showing the German assault on Warsaw (and defensive lines of the defenders) in last days of September:
When it comes to defended forts, basically until the capitulation of Warsaw Germans managed to capture only:
In operational area of German XI Corps (18, 19 Inf. divisions + 24 Inf. division in reserve + mass of non-divisional artillery and Pioniere):
- Fort II
- Fort II a
In operational area of XIII Corps (31, 10, 46 Inf. divisions + 3 Leichte division in reserve + mass of non-divisional artillery and Pioniere):
- Fort "Mokotów"
- Fort "Piłsudskiego" (= "Legionów" = "Tsche")
- Fort IX (= "Czerniaków" = "Dąbrowskiego")
Germans also captured Fort "Szczęśliwice" ("Tscha") - but without combats IIRC - Poles attempted to recapture it several times.
Also Fort "Bema" was fought over - Germans didn't manage to seize it until capitulation, despite numerous attempts.
Fort III "Blizne" was captured by Germans early during the battle of Warsaw - later Poles recaptured it on 23 September (they also attempted to recapture it on 18 and 19 September but those attempts failed). Later one Polish platoon with 1 HMG stationed there until at least 26 September.
In operational area of German I Corps Poles didn't defend the old Russian forts at all but organized defence immediately in urban area of Praga district.
Miroslav I
Warlord
r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 12,146
nuculear weapons do have a charm , when you kick people softly or hardly they immediately bring up the nuke card . Yet , when the conventional weapons , those bunker busters , high precision whatever come into full play , it becomes posssible to kick them so hard that they will pass out and you will draw moustaches on their nukes .
R16 never makes sense. That's why we mostly ignore him by now.
That's not a troll, by the way, mods. 90% of the time I really don't know what the hell r16's saying, and I've heard similar sentiments expressed by others.
Miroslav I
Warlord
Can you give more details on mechanism, please, not on weapons. And if you kick a major power with "whatever come into full play" than you just cant expect them to "pass out". It will definite be a retaliation, with "whatever come into full play", too. And what do you think about other powers, small or not so small, that they will stay neutral or will take some actions?
Miroslav
r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 12,146
thanks for the compliments . Though the name is always r16 , with the little r .
regarding mechanisms , America's sole superiority is in the horror that it forces onto the minds of other countries . You can't scare off American might by ordinary means , not even nukes . (Consider Georgian surprise in 2008 ) Because the undisputed American conventional lead is supported by the hypersonic combat aircraft America does not have , cyber warfare advantages America does not enjoy , small units so well versed in combat tactics people even do not bother mentioning them yet they are hardly the CIA boys or those of Pentagon , and so on . This is fiction . American reclame that will lead to American heartbreak when they go head to head with this peer competitor of theirs .
it all depends on how hard you kick .
and any small , medium , large and great power will be wellcomed to be allied to USA . Since if any fictive power is strong enough to actually tell America to get lost , well you will get the drift . 1990s were definitely irritating , and Serbs as they should have known already , were left to suffer in the end .
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