RegentMan
Deity
I'm okay with plako as the admin. I don't think there'll be any suspicion that we're cozying up to RB- plako made the map so he is a natural thought for the position.
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- Thread starter classical_hero
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Bowsling
Deity
I think that plako should be named admin. The "home site" thing is really quite silly. He has been active in every CivFanatics MTDG. If his greater postcount at RB makes him unfairly biased towards RB, wouldn't we have seen that reflected in the map? All this politicization makes me sick. The game needs an admin. We already have a dedicated map maker that has been following this game (and this thread) closely. Who cares what site he is from?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Some had already said that the map is not much fair. But this cant have much to do with Plako and RB as the numbers and starting positions were assigned random.Re-reading the thread and PMs, everyone but Sommers is for Plako as admin at this point. We have diplo connections with the teams that has not yet responded in the public thread. We could actually fix this situation now if we put a half hour effort into it.
I've got much respect for Sommerswerd's diplo skills, but as his original point is not valid anymore, I say get a move on and do this.
Since I've been stirring up this a little, I can draft some message proposals:
- Letter to CP and WPC telling we're backing plako and ask them to do the same
- Message to plako telling him to re-read the thread, explaining the tactical side of this internal discussion and that there's no distrust
- Message for the public thread
Let me know if I should move forward on this, and I'll have it done in a few hrs.
I've got much respect for Sommerswerd's diplo skills, but as his original point is not valid anymore, I say get a move on and do this.
Since I've been stirring up this a little, I can draft some message proposals:
- Letter to CP and WPC telling we're backing plako and ask them to do the same
- Message to plako telling him to re-read the thread, explaining the tactical side of this internal discussion and that there's no distrust
- Message for the public thread
Let me know if I should move forward on this, and I'll have it done in a few hrs.
Calis
on time
Go ahead tobiasn...
)Bowsling
Deity
Looks great! 
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
The reasons Sommers had in mind while not agreeing with Plako being appointed as game admin were few. I will try to replicate them:
- This is a CFC organized game and it is a bit a matter of prestige who will be the admin. Is it CFC admin or someone, who is perceived as member of another participating site.
- Plako, as being active at games set-up and played at RB, will have more or less perceiving and POV based on what is considered right and what is wrong at RB. Like for example I can give at RB espionage is banned. War Elephants are banned, naval blockades are banned, there is some time to wait in the turn before you can settle and so on and so on things which we never considered unfair or necessary to be regulated. The level of belief in the rightfulness of those RB ways is so high amongst the RB members (cant really speak specific for Plako himself), but it is fact that we all which dont agree with them were called "Village idiots" by RB representative in the official organize thread for the ISDG and I myself was threatened with ban in RB by their admin if I ever again open my mouth challenging or even discussing those at the RB forum. So, Sommer's worries as I understand them are that Plako as admin can judge and interpret the game rules in way we dont see as "common" and "normal".
For example, I believe part of RB's success (beside their obviously great play of course) is that they play on a map type they are used to. Plako made many maps for RB games and those guys knew what to expect. They knew there will be gold close by, they knew approximately how much space each civ is given and so on. Plako, I know you are reading this and I want to specifically point out that nothing from what I said is headed towards you or is in some way your fault. I said it then and I will say it now again: I am deeply thankful that you willingly did not played in the game only to make the map for us and help this game happen. To add to the disclaimer, I am mostly telling what Sommers had in mind and explaining that I can understand his reasons.
Good reason for Plako as admin is he knows MP and he follows the game closely, which is important in my POV.
- This is a CFC organized game and it is a bit a matter of prestige who will be the admin. Is it CFC admin or someone, who is perceived as member of another participating site.
- Plako, as being active at games set-up and played at RB, will have more or less perceiving and POV based on what is considered right and what is wrong at RB. Like for example I can give at RB espionage is banned. War Elephants are banned, naval blockades are banned, there is some time to wait in the turn before you can settle and so on and so on things which we never considered unfair or necessary to be regulated. The level of belief in the rightfulness of those RB ways is so high amongst the RB members (cant really speak specific for Plako himself), but it is fact that we all which dont agree with them were called "Village idiots" by RB representative in the official organize thread for the ISDG and I myself was threatened with ban in RB by their admin if I ever again open my mouth challenging or even discussing those at the RB forum. So, Sommer's worries as I understand them are that Plako as admin can judge and interpret the game rules in way we dont see as "common" and "normal".
For example, I believe part of RB's success (beside their obviously great play of course) is that they play on a map type they are used to. Plako made many maps for RB games and those guys knew what to expect. They knew there will be gold close by, they knew approximately how much space each civ is given and so on. Plako, I know you are reading this and I want to specifically point out that nothing from what I said is headed towards you or is in some way your fault. I said it then and I will say it now again: I am deeply thankful that you willingly did not played in the game only to make the map for us and help this game happen. To add to the disclaimer, I am mostly telling what Sommers had in mind and explaining that I can understand his reasons.
Good reason for Plako as admin is he knows MP and he follows the game closely, which is important in my POV.
Ok, those finer points I missed, - I think that was mostly subtext in the discussion so far, and good that you spell it out for noobs like myself.
To be practical about this:
The prestige thing - I personally do not think that is a good reason. I'm more worried about CFC pushing for (another) admin on the grounds of this person being CFC. That's my personal opinion tho.
When it comes to the potential rulings of an admin, you guys have the experience. I don't. If the ruleset we agreed on leaves room for interpretation in any direction, and you fear that plako's potential rulings will be more RB-style than in the spirit of this ISDG, there's two directions to go from there: Talk to Plako about it and sort it out, or get another candidate on board.
To be practical about this:
The prestige thing - I personally do not think that is a good reason. I'm more worried about CFC pushing for (another) admin on the grounds of this person being CFC. That's my personal opinion tho.
When it comes to the potential rulings of an admin, you guys have the experience. I don't. If the ruleset we agreed on leaves room for interpretation in any direction, and you fear that plako's potential rulings will be more RB-style than in the spirit of this ISDG, there's two directions to go from there: Talk to Plako about it and sort it out, or get another candidate on board.
YossarianLives
Deity
Hi Plako! I've been meaning to apologize to you because it has recently come to my attention that publicly posting PM's without the other party's knowledge is considered bad form (at least according to RB WW threads that I just started reading), and that is exactly what I did with your reply to my PM awhile back. I'm sorry about that and I hope you didn't feel that I was throwing you under the bus over here.
I was just going to comment that I am pretty positive that RB could not have known Gold would be nearby (this isn't something "common" to Plako or RB maps as far as I can tell), and if they had a better understanding about the distance between civs it's just because they did a better job of number-crunching than we (I) did at the beginning.
They did threaten 2metra (and maybe also Sommers?) with a ban when discussion about the best settings started getting heated. A lot of their members are definitely arrogant about their Civ opinions. I tried looking up the exact posts but unfortunately it seems they moved that thread into their private subforum...
I was just going to comment that I am pretty positive that RB could not have known Gold would be nearby (this isn't something "common" to Plako or RB maps as far as I can tell), and if they had a better understanding about the distance between civs it's just because they did a better job of number-crunching than we (I) did at the beginning.
They did threaten 2metra (and maybe also Sommers?) with a ban when discussion about the best settings started getting heated. A lot of their members are definitely arrogant about their Civ opinions. I tried looking up the exact posts but unfortunately it seems they moved that thread into their private subforum...
Well since Yossa jumped back into the discussion I guess I will too
A MAJOR reason that I had concerns that everyone seems to be missing is this note plako sent to Yossa:
Again, I am fine with majority rule in the matter, both on this team and in terms of a team vote. However I strongly advise against going around endorsing plako because we lose all credibility to make any argument later when one of these "forget about the rules, I'm doing what I think is fair" rulings come around.
Anyway, here are links to the original posts talking about it that everybody seems to be missing.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12305254&postcount=75
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12305135&postcount=73
A MAJOR reason that I had concerns that everyone seems to be missing is this note plako sent to Yossa:
To me that means that if plako subjectively decides he doesn't think a rule is fair he will ignore it or enforce it differently as he sees fit. To me that was a problematic philosophy that I dont think we should be endorsing.
Again, I am fine with majority rule in the matter, both on this team and in terms of a team vote. However I strongly advise against going around endorsing plako because we lose all credibility to make any argument later when one of these "forget about the rules, I'm doing what I think is fair" rulings come around.
Anyway, here are links to the original posts talking about it that everybody seems to be missing.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12305254&postcount=75
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12305135&postcount=73
vranasm
Deity
I obviously am not experienced enough for these discussions.
But I am really concerned that we didn't voice in our opinion yet, especially considering that we host the game and is our responsibility to run the game smoothly...
I can understand the problems with installing admin which is generally viewed as RB boy, but the same probably could say other teams about r_rolo before the game started (he obviously is "our guy")
the main point I wanted to make is that we should not remain silent... in the admin request thread only 3 teams didn't voice their opinion... we shouldn't be the last ones the others wait for....
Actually I think we should have probably came there much sooner and tried to play more active role in the admin problem considering we are hosting the game...
But I am really concerned that we didn't voice in our opinion yet, especially considering that we host the game and is our responsibility to run the game smoothly...
I can understand the problems with installing admin which is generally viewed as RB boy, but the same probably could say other teams about r_rolo before the game started (he obviously is "our guy")
the main point I wanted to make is that we should not remain silent... in the admin request thread only 3 teams didn't voice their opinion... we shouldn't be the last ones the others wait for....
Actually I think we should have probably came there much sooner and tried to play more active role in the admin problem considering we are hosting the game...
I do not see a problem with Plako's philosophy. Our ruleset technically even allows for the admin to administrate the game along that philosophy. The two important things that admin ruling might be needed for are alleged infrigments and using exploits. For both, our ruleset states that decision is solely admin's and it is final.
Only other thing I can think of that admin ruling might be needed for is when there is a request to change rules/settings (e.g. timer length). And even here we have left the decison for admin:
So in the end the real question is that do we trust Plako to wield powers of admin or not. Personally I do.
Offtopic: I find it funny that the rules state that each team has 1 vote, when unanimous decision of remaining teams is needed
Only other thing I can think of that admin ruling might be needed for is when there is a request to change rules/settings (e.g. timer length). And even here we have left the decison for admin:
So in the end the real question is that do we trust Plako to wield powers of admin or not. Personally I do.
Offtopic: I find it funny that the rules state that each team has 1 vote, when unanimous decision of remaining teams is needed
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Aivo, I think the biggest problem is exactly with this: that the admin are given very wide powers for ruling. The admin is not only a person to look after all teams following the voted rules or judging who have the right in disputes between teams, but also to change or interpret the rules as he sees fit.
If we come to asking Plako to be admin, I think we must hear his explanation how he is going to do his job
If we come to asking Plako to be admin, I think we must hear his explanation how he is going to do his job
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
To keep the good form I think we need to do the following:
To send PM to r_rolo1 asking him if he is OK and able to act as admin for the game.
Then if he is not, to send PM to DaveMCW asking him if he want to take the post.
Then we ask 3-4 more of the more active CFC admins if they want the position and if we dont have success with that, then we ask Plako how he plan to judge if he is admin and then support him for admin if we are OK with what we hear.
To send PM to r_rolo1 asking him if he is OK and able to act as admin for the game.
Then if he is not, to send PM to DaveMCW asking him if he want to take the post.
Then we ask 3-4 more of the more active CFC admins if they want the position and if we dont have success with that, then we ask Plako how he plan to judge if he is admin and then support him for admin if we are OK with what we hear.
I've already said I'll try to be as fair as possible. If that is not what you're looking for, that is totally alright. I'm happy to follow from the sidelines. Being an admin is thankless job and I just volunteered when no one else doesn't seem to be available.
RegentMan
Deity
Like it or not, though, any admin, whether it be plako, r_rolo, or a third party, has these wide powers. This isn't the time to try and hold plako hostage to following our way of doing things. If we truly have a problem with this rule in the ruleset (I don't, but if the team does), let's try and change the ruleset to reflect it. This isn't an issue for plako exclusively- this is an issue with any admin.
Let's voice our support for plako already and get an active admin back in charge of this game.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I am a bit disappointed of your unprovoked sarcasm.
Sarcasm? How did you get sarcasm from that 2metra? I suspect you read a little bit too much into that comment. Remember it's us (team collective) that has labeled "fair" as something too subjective.
But whatever.
What 2metra said up there, the three point plan, seems like a solution everyone in our team can be happy with.
Bear in mind though, that a new candidate for admin also must have the explicit backing of all teams. Plako already has this backing from all teams but three. With time in mind, it's maybe smarter to multitask and do all three things at the same time?
Plako, if you're still following, can you shed some light on what you actually mean when you say that you'd rather be "fair" than "follow the rules"? You see the objections. I think it would help to elaborate.
But whatever.
What 2metra said up there, the three point plan, seems like a solution everyone in our team can be happy with.
Bear in mind though, that a new candidate for admin also must have the explicit backing of all teams. Plako already has this backing from all teams but three. With time in mind, it's maybe smarter to multitask and do all three things at the same time?
Plako, if you're still following, can you shed some light on what you actually mean when you say that you'd rather be "fair" than "follow the rules"? You see the objections. I think it would help to elaborate.
