To Athiests, and Agonostics

[Sidhe]

Well, if you really are wicked, then hell would be better than eternity with God. Have it your way.

You've hit the nail on the head there Eran, the apeal of non belief is you can have it your way, and you can do so with the golden rule intact, modern religion sets rules that modern society is unwilling to follow and in fact ceased to follow thousands of years ago in many cases, whilst we admire your morals we do not live in a society that advocates them so we are in conflict with religion, now, you could say society is immoral, you could make a case based on testaments and dogma but society does not see itself as immoral and neither do we.

If religion could give me free will and freedom of expression and the ability to be moral and good and all the things that I hold dear: I'd be in like Flinn, it can't and doesn't and this is what creates a chasm of distinction between following God and not following God.

This is a particularly difficult idea to convey to the devout and it confuses them, but it is simply an extension of human morals and human ideas that exist and exist perfectly equitably without your religous message.

 

[bgast1]

OK, I have enough interest. I will attempt to give it a try. First of all I am not an expert. I know what I believe, and a lot of the answers that I would give will come from research and study that I am currently undertaking. It might be a few days between subjects, but then, maybe it will take a month just to get throug one subject. Initially, I think I will make a couple of comments by way of introduction. I expect this will take a long time and will cover most aspects that come into play in discussing Christianity. Some subjects of threads will be about truth, why should we belive anything at all, scientific evidence, miracles, eyewitness testimony about Jesus, reasons why the New Testament writers told the truth, the resurrection, was Jesus God, or just a moral teacher, did Jesus Himself have anything to say about the Bible, maybe even get into the Jesus Seminar, and interpretation as well, perhaps answer questions like If God exists, why is there evil.

To me this is an undaunting task, honestly, I don't know if I am up to the task, that is why I want to at least try and take it on. If nothing else, it will strengthen my own faith. If you all will respect that I am not an expert and just want to enter into dialogue then I think we will get along fine. I am not trying to convert anyone, but I do expect to be allowed to present straight forward evidence. Only God, can make you see that the truth of any of the information we discuss. There will undoubtedly be questions which cannot be answered because we don't have absolute proof, but I believe we can make decisions based upon reasonable doubt, as that is the standard in any court system in America, at least. I have a general outline of material to discuss, so I hope I am not heading into this blindly. I have to also be honest, I am a little scared taking on something like this. I've never done it before.

Finally, even if I was an expert, perhaps you have heard this before anyway, an ex is a has been, and a spert(spurt) is drip under pressure.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

If religion could give me free will and freedom of expression and the ability to be moral and good and all the things that I hold dear: I'd be in like Flinn, it can't and doesn't and this is what creates a chasm of distinction between following God and not following God.

Actually, that isn't quite the point. The idea is that being a moral person will cause you to be happier in the long run, and being with God will be the ultimate joy. I can say that if you truly understood the nature of God you would want to do anything to be with Him for eternity. But then I can't entirely blame you - there is a lot of confusion in the world regarding His nature.

Anyways, I view my religion as several things: it is the means by which God, through prophets, lets me know some of the things I should or shouldn't do (my own judgment can't be perfect) as well as a sort of mutual support group to encourage me to stay righteous. Because it is one thing to say that I know what I should do, and another to continually and daily strive to do it.

 

[Sidhe]

Actually, that isn't quite the point. The idea is that being a moral person will cause you to be happier in the long run, and being with God will be the ultimate joy. I can say that if you truly understood the nature of God you would want to do anything to be with Him for eternity. But then I can't entirely blame you - there is a lot of confusion in the world regarding His nature.

Anyways, I view my religion as several things: it is the means by which God, through prophets, lets me know some of the things I should or shouldn't do (my own judgment can't be perfect) as well as a sort of mutual support group to encourage me to stay righteous. Because it is one thing to say that I know what I should do, and another to continually and daily strive to do it.

Indeed but what your missing is I can do all that without religion, I get all the support I need to feel happy and content without it. I know what I should do and I too strive for it, I have a good understanding of some religions and a somewhat good understanding of others, I don't have to believe to have that knowledge, I can live my life perfectly morally without it. If my own judgement is less than perfect I can turn to religion or I can turn to society or philosophy.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Indeed but what your missing is I can do all that without religion, I get all the support I need to feel happy and content without it. I know what I should do and I too strive for it, I have a good understanding of some religions and a somewhat good understanding of others, I don't have to believe to have that knowledge, I can live my life perfectly morally without it. If my own judgement is less than perfect I can turn to religion or I can turn to society or philosophy.

Well, it's true that God will judge no one on their religion. There will be atheists and agnostics in heaven along with the Buddhists and Muslims and Christians, etc. But most people benefit somewhat by religion, and I think some non-religious people would benefit if they tried. Of course, one must be true to one's conscience in this matter, even if it's wrong. And I am completely convinced that my religion is correct.

 

[Perfection]

Well, it's true that God will judge no one on their religion. There will be atheists and agnostics in heaven along with the Buddhists and Muslims and Christians, etc. But most people benefit somewhat by religion, and I think some non-religious people would benefit if they tried. Of course, one must be true to one's conscience in this matter, even if it's wrong. And I am completely convinced that my religion is correct.

Well, I know a lot of athiests and agnostics looked into relligion. I looked very much into Christianity before I was convinced that it could not provide me with answers that are acceptable to me. At heart many non-religious folks are simply pragmatic, they don't believe simply because they see no reason too. Even when they look into it as they are told it provides answers they find the unevidenced statements empty and unsubstantiated.

 

[Sidhe]

@Erin: Really you believe us agnostics and atheists, if we live morally we can enter heaven? That's a rather enlightened view point, glad to hear it .

Personally I have a knowledge of religion because I have been devout in the past and it fascinates me from a meme perspective as well if your talking about philosophy, I turned away when I was about ten or eleven when I heard what it was religion had done in the past, at least the organised version.

To me those views outside of the orthodox are as pertinent as those inside the dogma, and I love the freedom to look into all the views of all the faiths.

being told what your doing is evil, wrong, sinful, immoral simply leads to distancing of people from religion, claiming your going to hell will do nothing but leave most people derriding religion, people are more sophisticated than the superstitious crowd of the olden days. I'm surprised some religous posters resort to this middle aged witch hunting, it's so last millenia. no correction it's so dark ages

If a religion needs to stand in judgement over anyone be they Hindu, Vodon, Jew or Muslim, then to me it's not a religion, in fact it disturbs me greatly. Their are some faiths that are little more than cults and they deserve short shrift but a persons beliefs are personal and should not want.

 

[bgast1]

If I take on this project -- my viewpoints will be contrary to Eran of Arcadia's in many many respects. I don't disrespect him, I just believe that his religion is wrong. Unfortunately, when we talk about truth, 2+2=4 is right, 2+2=5 is wrong. Not all religions get you into heaven, and not all religions are right. If Chrisitanity is right, then all the other religions are wrong. I believe Mormonism can be defined as a cult.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

If I take on this project -- my viewpoints will be contrary to Eran of Arcadia's in many many respects. I don't disrespect him, I just believe that his religion is wrong. Unfortunately, when we talk about truth, 2+2=4 is right, 2+2=5 is wrong. Not all religions get you into heaven, and not all religions are right. If Chrisitanity is right, then all the other religions are wrong. I believe Mormonism can be defined as a cult.

Bold by me.

You've already made a good start and seem to have an attitude that is up to the task you have set for yourself.

Just remember to keep a thick skin as sometimes these discussions can become quite heated. The attacks are nothing personal.

Looking forward to your thread.

 

[King Flevance]

If I read you right, Bgast, you are going to provide proof of the Christian God existing beyond reasonable doubt? This may easily be one of the first threads I check when I come to the boardsnow, if so.

EDIT:

Just remember to keep a thick skin as sometimes these discussions can become quite heated. The attacks are nothing personal.

This is an important rule to remember on this. I end up on discussion over this same topic on a few boards more themed after spirituality. It will no doubt be a test of your own beliefs as well. But without good risk there is never much to gain. These conversations I see quite healthy even for people of faith.

 

[Sidhe]

If I take on this project -- my viewpoints will be contrary to Eran of Arcadia's in many many respects. I don't disrespect him, I just believe that his religion is wrong. Unfortunately, when we talk about truth, 2+2=4 is right, 2+2=5 is wrong. Not all religions get you into heaven, and not all religions are right. If Chrisitanity is right, then all the other religions are wrong. I believe Mormonism can be defined as a cult.

All the other religions are wrong: please, Judaism,eastern orthodox, Islam, go back and hide your head in shame if that's what you think

I too await with baited breath the bigotry that asserts one religous dominion over another, this'll be good for a laugh.

 

[bgast1]

Shoot, now I ask myself what have I gotten myself into, or just how thick my skin is. It really isn't very thick and I get hurt easily. I don't disrespect anyone, neither do I judge anyone, and bigotry, I don't think so, but Christianity being the only correct religion is a concept that is hard to swallow, yeah, I accept that.

And I have already run into to some opposition on the Perfection's creation thread. It appears that some of my reference material may not be up to the task.

 

[Perfection]

It must be hard being the among the few champions of what is right.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Oh heck, I believe that Mormonism is what is Truly Right, and we've only got 12 million. But then I think that other religions aren't so much wrong as incomplete, to varying degrees they are missing some key doctrines but it isn't a matter of salvation. Like I said God wants us to take religion and morality seriously, but ultimately we must follow our consciences above anything else. Heaven will be full of people who were absolutely convinced that God couldn't exist, and so chose atheism. As long as you are humble enough to accept Him when you meet Him.

 

[bgast1]

King Flevance--I cannot entirely prove anything. It can't be done. All I can do is provide answers beyond a reasonable doubt. It will be entirely up to individuals to accept or deny what is presented. For all I know, some of the more intelligent, and astute people here will make a monkey out of me.

 

[Perfection]

King Flevance--I cannot entirely prove anything. It can't be done. All I can do is provide answers beyond a reasonable doubt. It will be entirely up to individuals to accept or deny what is presented. For all I know, some of the more intelligent, and astute people here will make a monkey out of me.

What is the evidence you are alluding too?

 

[bgast1]

See -- Sidhe --- Eran of Arcadia believes his religion is truly right, and the rest of us wrong. That's OK with me at this point. He and I have had a couple of threads back and forth already. He was honest with me, I was honest with him, no disrespect was conveyed. I expect feathers will get ruffled, but that doesn't mean any of us have to stoop to name calling and disrespect.

 

[bgast1]

What is the evidence you are alluding too?

For the answer to that you are going to have to read up a few threads. I already answered what I wanted to do.

 

[Perfection]

For the answer to that you are going to have to read up a few threads. I already answered what I wanted to do.

Which threads?

 

[bgast1]

Which threads?

My apologies, I'm already off to a good start. Postings I meant. Maybe the page before, when I asked Fifty the question.