To Athiests, and Agonostics

[GenMarshall]

I used to be an agnostic. After I found God through my heart and again found Jesus and accepted him as my savior, I became a Christian on my way to return to the Catholic Faith .

 

[bgast1]

I used to be an agnostic. After I found God through my heart and again found Jesus and accepted him as my savior, I became a Christian on my way to return to the Catholic Faith .

Then perhaps you can provide some positive input when I get the thread going. I have a feeling I will need all the help I can get. Also I think I sent you a PM asking a question. Maybe you saw it maybe you didn't.

 

[Perfection]

My apologies, I'm already off to a good start. Postings I meant. Maybe the page before, when I asked Fifty the question.

Well, I think evidence is the only way you'll convince me.

 

[MobBoss]

If God cared even a bit about his "children", he wouldn't allow such things to happen.

No. Tell me, if your own children are planning to make a choice as adults that you dont agree with...are you going to force them to make a different choice simply because you wont allow it to happen? No. Just like that, neither will God interfere in the choices we, his children make. He has given us his advice in the bible on what choices he wants us to make, but we are free to do so or not do so as the case may be.

Yes, we have free will, but what does this mean, if a policeman sees one raping a woman or murdering another person, would you expect that he wouldn't intervene? Of course he'd intervene to keep the order, and he wouldn't allow atrocities to happen.

Thats because that is what the policeman is mandated to do. God has mandated that we have free will. He judges us at death on how we lived our life.

It seems many people in the world have far more strong sense for justice than what God pretends to have. If he truly isn't handicapped and can help people but he doesn't, he is a SCUM and also responsible for knowing something and doing nothing, plain and simple. Only PARANOID people find any kind of excuse to justify why they didn't intervene to save a life when they had the power to do so, and God must be the most paranoid among them because he HAS that power(always assuming that God existed).

Sorry, I already pointed out why your reasoning here is flawed. Trying to label people who are religious as paranoid only succeeds in painting you as a bigot or possibly paranoid yourself.

Of course isn't God that does it, but since he CAN/COULD stop it but he didn't, he's equally responsible.

Sorry, once again you are incorrect. You, and only you, are responsible for your actions...if you kill a child, it is upon your hands, not Gods.

Are you His representative and speak for Him? I didn't knew, sorry. If He existed He'd speak by Himself, I'm sure of it.

God speaks to people in a variety of ways. Just like Nicodemus, you have problems understanding that which is so foreign to you. That doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Judged by Him? It'd be fun to be judged by someone that DID see a crime being commited, COULD stop it but chose not to, and is so PARANOID to say that he'd judge eveyone when he feels like it.

Edited[/QUOTE]

I dont think its going to be fun at all. Nope...not at all.

 

[Sidhe]

Free will? Where show me the logical consistency with omniscience and free will and we'll conncede the point, your religion imprisons you with bars that you can't force apart to escape from because they are not real.

I think Agnosticism triumphs for me because religion is bereft of everything I hold dear or at least the Christian misnterpritation is, if I did regain my religion I could not pray in a Christian church so devoid of logic,to my mind Christianity is so pointlessly inncaurrate when it comes to describing God's will or power it's almost funny.

Human beings don't have a clue about God, whether he exists even? What he might have in terms of power and what in fact dogmatic nonsense can do to criple religion nad spread death. It is IMO in a big mess at a sort of crossroads or crisis point, few churches I have seen have any realistic game plan which matches the societies they exist in, thus I reckon at least in Europe they should change or die, some are, some are slowly, some are doomed.

 

[Atlas14]

Free will? Where show me the logical consistency with omniscience and free will and we'll conncede the point, your religion imprisons you with bars that you can't force apart to escape from because they are not real.

I think Agnosticism triumphs for me because religion is bereft of everything I hold dear or at least the Christian misnterpritation is, if I did regain my religion I could not pray in a Christian church so devoid of logic,to my mind Christianity is so pointlessly inncaurrate when it comes to describing God's will or power it's almost funny.

Human beings don't have a clue about God, whether he exists even? What he might have in terms of power and what in fact dogmatic nonsense can do to criple religion nad spread death. It is IMO in a big mess at a sort of crossroads or crisis point, few churches I have seen have any realistic game plan which matches the societies they exist in, thus I reckon at least in Europe they should change or die, some are, some are slowly, some are doomed.

Thats how it seems to me as well. It seems that Churches and religious "officials" or whatever are merely guessing what God's "personality" is, what his intentions are, and what God would want us to do. If these people seriously, in their hearts, believe this is what people should be doing (good works, no abortions, be charitable, etc.) then why not do it out of the goodness of their hearts and stop labeling it under the banner of whatever religion they are? Im fine with people asking for local donations to help rebuild someone's house that was destroyed in a fire, but when they say "God wants us to do this", "God will respect us for doing this" and other such things, I have to ask why people are guessing around what God really expects of us. If nobody ever told me anything about religion whatsoever, and I hypothetically lived on ISLAND A, how would I even know about anything pertaining to a greater being? What would be my motivation for believing in something that I have not seen, heard, or experienced for myself? Just say I had a brother- Im sure he would not listen to me if I told him to fix me a large glass of iced tea because my dad said for him to do it. He would want to hear the order from my dad himself. Why do religioius people, who have only been TOLD about what God wants, that he exists, etc., believe in this active God that they have never seen, heard, or experienced? Is it logical, is it beneficial for them to do so? What it boils down to is I need proof before I follow orders and dedicate my possibly short life to something I've never seen or heard.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Sure, that's all well and good for you. But my religion claims that it has prophets who can speak directly to God. It seems to me that that's the best way for them to know what God wants. As I am able to accept this (admittedly large) claim, I can see how my religion could come to know God's will. Otherwise I don't see how any ne religion could claim to have the answers.

 

[Bluemofia]

No. Tell me, if your own children are planning to make a choice as adults that you dont agree with...are you going to force them to make a different choice simply because you wont allow it to happen? No. Just like that, neither will God interfere in the choices we, his children make. He has given us his advice in the bible on what choices he wants us to make, but we are free to do so or not do so as the case may be.

Tell that to my parents. If I make a choice that they do not like, they force me to change it. Or they change it for me.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Well, I know a lot of athiests and agnostics looked into relligion. I looked very much into Christianity before I was convinced that it could not provide me with answers that are acceptable to me. At heart many non-religious folks are simply pragmatic, they don't believe simply because they see no reason too. Even when they look into it as they are told it provides answers they find the unevidenced statements empty and unsubstantiated.

You know, Perfection, if you didn't exist then I think we'd have to invent you.

 

[Kozmos]

I believe most christians think of us atheists like Unfaithful Thomas(one of the apostoles from the Bible if memory serves).You know the bloke that didnt believe Jesus was ressurected until he touched his ghostly wounds.

Surely God must have predicted there would be more people like him,that would have wanted hardcore evidence to believe.Failing to provide such evidence,has God willfuly sentenced us to Hellfire and Damnation?

 

[Souron]

I have a question for you. If someone could provide reasonable answers to the most significant objections that you have about Christianity--reasonable to the point that Christianity seems true beyond a reasonable doubt--would you then become a Christian?

You don't need to give a reason why, you just need to answer a simple yes or no.

Yes. Well actually there may still be a shread of doubt -- reasonable doubt, as the expression goes. But I would definitely get baptized.

 

[batteryacid]

Here comes a bit of my logic framework concerning religion into this discussion:

assumptions:

1)Heaven and hell exist

2)It is impossible to know which religion worships the right god(s) (or the right picture of him /them)

3)I don´t want to be in hell in afterlife

that leads to two solutions to the dilemma:

1) I worship every god/religion that exists
Problem: rules from different religins may be excluding each other
Problem: Does the worshipping of the wrong religions weight more than the worshipping of the one that´s right?

2) I worship no god/religion

That leads to the other question: Where does got /the gods put people that are indifferent to him ? Into heaven (they did nothing wrong ) or in hell (they did nothing right?)

I prefer 3)
I only really know that I exist (rest of the world could be an illusion and is only out of habit accepted to exist) so I worship myself and I myself put myself in heaven or hell for what I´m doing (free will comes down to this in the end I guess)

any flaw in my logics ?

 

[bigfatron]

Two parts to the answer:

1. Would I believe in the existence of a creator if I was provided with reasonable evidence?
Yes, I think I would, although it is hard to be sure until such a situation transpired.

2. Would I then become a practising Christian?
Well, honestly, probably not unless the evidence was specifically related to the existence of Jesus and the accuracy of his gospel - since the Christian faith is inherently illogical and contradictory I would require a higher standard of evidence before accepting Christ as my saviour than I would for simply accepting the existence of a Creator. I suppose it is possible to conceive of evidence that would be sufficient for me, but it is a tougher ask.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have a question for you. If someone could provide reasonable answers to the most significant objections that you have about Christianity--reasonable to the point that Christianity seems true beyond a reasonable doubt--would you then become a Christian?

You don't need to give a reason why, you just need to answer a simple yes or no.

No. Since I do not see the need.

I am an atheist, but I still think that a lot of what Jesus suposed to have said are noble sentiments.

But Christianity also requires accepting everything in the bible as being Gods holy word and thus irresputable. I have two problems with that. Namely, I don't agree with everything in the bible (the parts about slavery, and how to treat women for instance) and second there will always be arguments on which parts are meant as symbolism and which parts are to be taken litteraly. So human interpretation will always be a part of Cristianity.

That's why it's also hard to say: "to the point that Christianity seems true beyond a reasonable doubt". Which version of it?

For instance does the bible condemn homosexuality, or merely making out with male templeslaves?

If God does exist, and this is hard for me to swallow, it's impossible for us to understand what he/she means us to do ... so it's equally hard for me to understand how someone could prove christianity to be true. But heck, at least I'm trying

Sorry for being so longwinded

edit: Hmm, judging by some other posters this wasn't longwinded by a long shot

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

But Christianity also requires accepting everything in the bible as being Gods holy word and thus irresputable. I have two problems with that. Namely, I don't agree with everything in the bible (the parts about slavery, and how to treat women for instance) and second there will always be arguments on which parts are meant as symbolism and which parts are to be taken litteraly. So human interpretation will always be a part of Cristianity.

No it doesn't. In fact, there has always been a debate within Christianity as to which books should be included - witness the fact that Catholics have extra books. Luther, if I remember right, though that the Gospel of John didn't belog. And my religion (Mormonism) has said that there are translation errors in the Bible since before the beginning of biblical criticism.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No it doesn't. In fact, there has always been a debate within Christianity as to which books should be included - witness the fact that Catholics have extra books. Luther, if I remember right, though that the Gospel of John didn't belog. And my religion (Mormonism) has said that there are translation errors in the Bible since before the beginning of biblical criticism.

That's what I meant when I asked: "Which version?". And dependant on which books should be included, I take it that the books included are indeed holy and should still be taken as Gods holy word, or at least divinely inspired? And after that, it still leaves us with the human interpretation debate.

 

[bgast1]

Ziggy S -- come join my thread, it is going to take a very long time to get to the end, but by the time I, we finish, you will know enough to chose for yourself whether to accept or reject it. No one will twist your arm.

 

[Masquerouge]

If any religion manages to have the same level of proof and scientific credentials than the Theory of Evolution, then yes, I will convert to that religion

 

[thetrooper]

I have a question for you. If someone could provide reasonable answers to the most significant objections that you have about Christianity--reasonable to the point that Christianity seems true beyond a reasonable doubt--would you then become a Christian?

You don't need to give a reason why, you just need to answer a simple yes or no.

My kind of thread...



No

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

In my opinion, no one has really given an honest answer. Let me put it this way: if God appeared to you, and you could be certain that it was Him, and He explained to you exactly why Christianity was correct, and exactly why it would be in your benefit to be Christian, and He cleared up any doubts you had, and made it clear that you had misunderstood Him and He was not morally inferior to you, could you come up with a single valid argument for not becoming Christian? This is hypothetical, so you can't say, "well I think that Christianity is contradictory" or whatever.