Today I Learned #3: There's a wiki for everything!

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I like most the King Arthur movie with the Sarmatian knights.
Those Sarmatians played a really interesting role in late Roman and post Roman era Europe and are imo very much overlooked in national history as people get that at schools.
Their banner with the dragon ofc nice in a fantasy world setting with Arthur (the son of Uther Pendragon)
I liked the movie as a kid, but I increasingly despite it. If I ignore the historical accuracy (about the same level as 300), it still makes no sense. Arthur has to travel north of Hadrian's Wall, deep into dangerous Pict-land, in order to rescue a Roman aristocrat who made his villa deep in the Scottish highlands. When returning to Hadrian's Wall, Arthur fights Saxon's on a frozen lake, despite the entire rest of the movie taking place in temperate weather. Plus, the Saxons, seeking to invade Britain, sail far north past Hadrian's Wall, to land, and then march south to attack the defended side of Hadrian's Wall.....
And to think I liked it more than Mists of Avalon and thought it was more accurate. At least the movie of Mists of Avalon is better than the book in having an actual climax that does something with the mythology introduced.
(And the King Arthur-Sarmatian connection is based on some very flimsy supports that don't hold up at all.)
 
I'm not going to track down references, because you can do that, but how many canons do you think there are?
There's canon, fanon, and head canon. Or so I'm told at TrekBBS when we get arguing whether or not certain series, movies, episodes, or details are canon or not.

If anyone wants to tackle the very long story I referenced, here it is: LEGACY: Marauder's Era

The primary pairing in this story is Sirius Black and an original character, and the story starts when the Marauders are just starting at Hogwarts. It's 173 chapters long at the moment (I binge-read the first 158 chapters inside of a week, so that should be an indication that it's a good story) and is currently in the timeframe of Goblet of Fire. The original character is the one who discovers that the Giant Squid isn't really a squid at all...
 
I liked the movie as a kid, but I increasingly despite it. If I ignore the historical accuracy (about the same level as 300), it still makes no sense. Arthur has to travel north of Hadrian's Wall, deep into dangerous Pict-land, in order to rescue a Roman aristocrat who made his villa deep in the Scottish highlands. When returning to Hadrian's Wall, Arthur fights Saxon's on a frozen lake, despite the entire rest of the movie taking place in temperate weather. Plus, the Saxons, seeking to invade Britain, sail far north past Hadrian's Wall, to land, and then march south to attack the defended side of Hadrian's Wall.....
And to think I liked it more than Mists of Avalon and thought it was more accurate. At least the movie of Mists of Avalon is better than the book in having an actual climax that does something with the mythology introduced.
(And the King Arthur-Sarmatian connection is based on some very flimsy supports that don't hold up at all.)

Well yes
Perhaps I am meanwhile past that annoying about historical quality when it is about what I basically see as a fantasy theme with some elements related to history.
Perhaps I am just too happy seeing movies at all about that "dark period" between the Roman collapse and Renaiissance.
Perhaps also the reason why I like some RPG games so much. From the pri,itive ones like Ultima , Bards tales, Baldurs Gate, etc to the Elder Scrolls.
What do you think about the Bernard Cornwell The Warlord Chronicles ? I loved reading it. I would love to see it as a movie.
 
TIL that I am supposedly 44% English, 36% Scottish, 10% German, 4% Irish, 3% Welsh and 3% Swedish.
With the proviso that the DNA test my brother had done is probably not that meaningful when it says that.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-accurate-are-online-dna-tests/

But to say that you are 20 percent Irish, 4 percent Native American or 12 percent Scandinavian is fun, trivial and has very little scientific meaning.

 
The 2004 King Arthur film did claim to be historically accurate.

Twas a bad movie bereft of history and a waste of celluloid.

Bernard Cornwell :worship: in researching Arthur in preparation of writing the Warlord Chronicles found that, although the was an upsurge of boys named Arthur circa A.D. 500, there is no evidence of any Guinevere, Lancelot, Excalibur, Round Table, Morgan le Fey, etc. etc. etc. :dunno:
 
The 2004 King Arthur film did claim to be historically accurate.
From what I recall, it was carefully couched as "the most historically accurate" adaptation of the Arthur legends. Something which scans to most people as "it's historically accurate" but providing a get-out-of-jail card when nerds like us complain about it.
 
Bernard Cornwell :worship: in researching Arthur in preparation of writing the Warlord Chronicles found that, although the was an upsurge of boys named Arthur circa A.D. 500, there is no evidence of any Guinevere, Lancelot, Excalibur, Round Table, Morgan le Fey, etc. etc. etc. :dunno:
I'd be very curious to see his sources given we have basically no sources from that period.
The primary near-contemporary source that as any meaningful evidentiary value is Gildas' On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain, which is notable for not mentioning Arthur. (Though it does mention the Battle of Mount Badon, which later Welsh sources ascribe to Arthur.) The other sources that make claims about going back that far, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and some Welsh Annals, are near useless for that period. The entry preceding the mention of Arthur and Mordred falling at Camlann is about a monk living to over 300 years old and the text itself was composed several hundred years after the events allegedly took place. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as similar problems, being composed several centuries later with its entries from that period largely consisting how the Saxons drove the dissolute British before them in great victories, and making puns about the names of places to justify their ownership. (ie, that Portsmouth was founded by a Saxon named Port.)
Apart from Ruin and Conquest and some annals of extremely dubious quality, we have a couple Saints Lives and that is it. Certainly I can't imagine we have enough to make a statistical argument about naming trends.

Per Halsall*, we know of three 'Arthurs' in the late 6th century, one of whom was a son of a Scottish king who crops up briefly in the Life of St. Columba (which also features St. Columba turning princes into foxes). After that, the name of Arthur basically fades into oblivion with nobody for another 500 years appearing to name their kid Arthur, until we get to Geoffrey of Monmouth. Even then, it wasn't "Britons" naming their kid Arthur, but a lot of Normans and Bretons. It is worth noting the Armes Prydein, which was composed in the early 900s and is all about how the English will be kicked out of Britain's fair and pleasant land, makes absolutely no mention of Arthur; even though the idea that Arthur was a sort of important person who fought Saxons was already circulating in Wales thanks to Nennius History of Britain.

*I'm going almost entirely off of Guy Halsall's Worlds of Arthur: Facts and Fictions of the Dark Ages and I highly recommend anyone with an interest in the Arthur myth or the early Middle Ages read it.

Well yes
Perhaps I am just too happy seeing movies at all about that "dark period" between the Roman collapse and Renaiissance.
There were no "Dark Ages", really. Parts of Northern Europe saw a period that, while featuring a breakdown in long distance trade and a monetary economy, were primarily defined by a lack of written sources. The Carolingian Renaissance on the continent, around 800 AD, along with similar movements in England, saw a much greater number of documents produced; with us getting access to law codes, wills, property deeds, chronicles, charters, etc.
And once we get to the High and Late Middle Ages, they loved writing stuff down and we have a huge number of documents to draw upon.

What do you think about the Bernard Cornwell The Warlord Chronicles ? I loved reading it. I would love to see it as a movie.
Haven't read it, should probably get around to it, but my last experience with King Arthur historical fiction (Jack Whyte) was not very impressive.
Bernard Cornwell is an excellent historical fiction author, but writing a story about King Arthur as understood in later legends as if he were a historical person would be not dissimilar to writing a historical fiction story about WW2 featuring Mecha-Hitler.
The wiki article mentioned that Cornwell uses the "Merlin the Druid" and re-introduction of the Old Gods as a plot point. However, we have absolutely no indication that paganism was a problem in Britain. Rather, Life of St Germanus and Ruin and Conquest both present heresy, not paganism, as the concern in Britain. Similarly, Bede, in justifying the Saxon conquest as God punishing the dissolute Britons, didn't call the Britons pagans, but heretics. If there was a resurgence of paganism in Britain, nothing came down to us and it would have marked Britain as very unique in the post-Roman world.
(Interestingly, Gildas, while railing against the heresy of the Britons, makes no mention of Pelagianism, which was supposedly the defining heresy of Britain; instead railing against Arianism. That, along with Gildas' name being otherwise unaccounted for in any forms in British languages (but does show up in Gothic languages) raises the intriguing idea Gildas was not native to Britain.)

Traitorfish said:
From what I recall, it was carefully couched as "the most historically accurate" adaptation of the Arthur legends. Something which scans to most people as "it's historically accurate" but providing a get-out-of-jail card when nerds like us complain about it.
The worst part is the production designers weren't allowed to use period arms and armor, despite some stellar visual inspiration from artists like Angus McBride.
8e01c11d29ad433028ff212670b84a68.jpg
 
Twas a bad movie bereft of history and a waste of celluloid.

Bernard Cornwell :worship: in researching Arthur in preparation of writing the Warlord Chronicles found that, although the was an upsurge of boys named Arthur circa A.D. 500, there is no evidence of any Guinevere, Lancelot, Excalibur, Round Table, Morgan le Fey, etc. etc. etc. :dunno:
There is proof you are quite wrong....


Link to video.

For the second one skip ahed to 1:00 in.

Link to video.
 
Plus, the Saxons, seeking to invade Britain, sail far north past Hadrian's Wall, to land, and then march south to attack the defended side of Hadrian's Wall.....
FFS it looks like something scripted by Blizzard.
 
(Interestingly, Gildas, while railing against the heresy of the Britons, makes no mention of Pelagianism, which was supposedly the defining heresy of Britain; instead railing against Arianism. That, along with Gildas' name being otherwise unaccounted for in any forms in British languages (but does show up in Gothic languages) raises the intriguing idea Gildas was not native to Britain.)

I always like finding historical heretics whose ideas line up with my own. :)
 
Even to the extent of having somebody German-born head the local breakaway church? You're so Victorian, Arakhor.
 
There were no "Dark Ages", really. Parts of Northern Europe saw a period that, while featuring a breakdown in long distance trade and a monetary economy, were primarily defined by a lack of written sources. The Carolingian Renaissance on the continent, around 800 AD, along with similar movements in England, saw a much greater number of documents produced; with us getting access to law codes, wills, property deeds, chronicles, charters, etc.
And once we get to the High and Late Middle Ages, they loved writing stuff down and we have a huge number of documents to draw upon.
The term "Dark" depends on the views of which side is naming that period of time. For instance, the time when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister of Canada is commonly called "The Dark Decade" due to the rabid anti-science/anti-environment attitude of his cabinet and MPs. He ordered entire libraries of several decades' worth of environmental records destroyed - literally burned - so various environmental groups couldn't use the information to prove how badly the oil and gas industries were harming the ecosystem.


For a facetious (but true) bit of musing here... there are some who consider the time we're in now to be a sort of Dark Age, due to the issues of climate change, some of the reprehensible attitudes common in society toward certain groups of people, and so on.

Rewind the calendar a bit to the late '80s at a science fiction convention in Calgary, and I'm perusing the program book. I see a panel called "Are These the Dark Ages?" and it sounds interesting. So I go to the panel room (one of three in the same hallway), sit down, and the moderator and panel members come in. The moderator stands up and asks: "So. Are these the Dark Ages?"

BOOM. The lights went out, leaving the room in pitch black. Some people thought it was a planned joke and started to laugh. Others had "WTH" reactions. Everybody started speculating about which jerk turned the lights off. However... nobody had been sitting or standing anywhere near the light switch.

The best explanation we ever got was that a group of Wiccans who were holding their own activity down the hall had somehow done something that resulted in a fuse blowing. All three rooms were in the dark.

An aside about the Wiccans... that year my hall costume was my Larry Elmore-inspired Dragonlance outfit - long black dress, black shoes embroidered with pearl beads, black shawl, black and pearl headband, silver jewelry, black and silver accessories, and some other accessories common to Elmore paintings like leather belt pouches and feathers. Before the aforementioned panel, someone came up to me and asked about the Spiral Dance panel, and I had a "huh?" reaction because I'd never heard of it. The other person pointed to my costume and said that I couldn't be wearing all that stuff unless I was part of the spiral dance group, and had a hard time wrapping their head around the idea that for that weekend I'd put on the persona of a dark mage from the Dragonlance novels. They went away in disbelief... :shake:

There is proof you are quite wrong....


Link to video.

For the second one skip ahed to 1:00 in.

Link to video.
My favorite Camelot character is Lancelot (long before I was assigned as the dresser for the actor who played the part in the production I worked on).

However, my favorite Arthurian movie is First Knight.

Here's our introduction to Lancelot (Richard Gere):



He later saves Guinevere in the forest when her wedding train is attacked by Malagant and his men:



Guinevere's first look at Camelot:



Later, Lancelot comes to the palace and decides to run a gauntlet; the prize is a kiss from Guinevere:


Lancelot doesn't claim his kiss, but rather tells the crowd, "I dare not kiss so lovely a lady." Arthur is impressed both with Lancelot's ability to beat the gauntlet and his sense of chivalry, and offers Lancelot a place at the Round Table, to put down some roots somewhere and give up his life of wandering. Of course Lancelot and Guinevere fall in love later and Arthur isn't pleased...


Our SCA group was involved in the showing of this movie here. We were offered the opportunity to set up a display in the theatre lobby if we provided a demo of fighting before the movie and wore our costumes.

Heavy fighting wasn't possible due to the fact that the armor would have damaged the floor (this was at the front of the theatre, where the audience sat). So we decided on a fencing demo, which went over well. We were also allowed to see the movie for free, which was nice.

It was so refreshing not to have any of the 3-Ms (Merlin, Mordred, Morgan), though Excalibur made its appearance, of course. And yeah, there were a lot of liberties taken, lots of anachronistic details... but it's a fun movie, a nice movie... and besides, Sean Connery and Richard Gere, two of my favorites. If I want traditional, I'll either read Mists of Avalon or my old copy of Morte d'Arthur (had to read that in college nearly 40 years ago).
 
TIL a reason why net neutrality is important:

Across the Pacific, thousands of people are on pre-paid data phone plans which include cheap access to Facebook. Those on limited incomes can get news through the social network, but cannot go to original source websites without using more data, and spending more money.

The region’s largest telco provider, Digicel, with a presence in Fiji, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Tonga and Vanuatu, offers affordable mobile data plans with free or cheap access to Facebook.​
 
There were no "Dark Ages", really. Parts of Northern Europe saw a period that, while featuring a breakdown in long distance trade and a monetary economy, were primarily defined by a lack of written sources. The Carolingian Renaissance on the continent, around 800 AD, along with similar movements in England, saw a much greater number of documents produced; with us getting access to law codes, wills, property deeds, chronicles, charters, etc.
And once we get to the High and Late Middle Ages, they loved writing stuff down and we have a huge number of documents to draw upon.

That's generally my take as well on those "dark ages".
We have a rhyming saying in Dutch: "wie schrijft, die blijft" (he who writes, stays)
I think it also played a role that the big tribal migrations, also a factor of the collapse of the Roman empire, caused chaos and seen from the perspective of the ordered christianised world of post 1000 AD ofc a dark period and seen from the Renaissance period, the rebirth of Greek-Roman thoughts and "cultural capital", also a dark period. Charlemagne the guy who got order again to some degree and christianising.
Those tribal migrations were three big waves of devastation, the first one by the Huns pushing westward around 378-450, then the Avars around 600-650 and then the Vikings, Moors, Magyars around 800-1000.
 
TIL a reason why net neutrality is important:

Across the Pacific, thousands of people are on pre-paid data phone plans which include cheap access to Facebook. Those on limited incomes can get news through the social network, but cannot go to original source websites without using more data, and spending more money.

The region’s largest telco provider, Digicel, with a presence in Fiji, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Tonga and Vanuatu, offers affordable mobile data plans with free or cheap access to Facebook.​
FB is terrible and low cost FB for news and events sounds scammy to me.
 
TIL a reason why net neutrality is important:

Across the Pacific, thousands of people are on pre-paid data phone plans which include cheap access to Facebook. Those on limited incomes can get news through the social network, but cannot go to original source websites without using more data, and spending more money.

The region’s largest telco provider, Digicel, with a presence in Fiji, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Tonga and Vanuatu, offers affordable mobile data plans with free or cheap access to Facebook.​
This is particularly terrifying when combined with, say, Facebook's role in inciting the Rohingya genocide.
 
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