Tomatekh's Historical Religions v.24

[Agent327]

Well, in CiV there was Dodekatheism (Greek) and Imperial Cult (Roman). None of which have anything to do with Hellenism, as that is a term to describe the spread of Greek culture, ergo a sociological term. It's quite a complex phenomenon, which was greatly enhanced by Alexander's conquests. Greco-Polytheism may be a bit of a long name, but it's far more accurate.

 

[Tomatekh]

So, you can call it 'Hellenism'- as long as you realize that's a misnomer. And if you think that's 'pedantic', soit.

Actually, I call it Hellenism based on the various definitions of Hellenism and established usage of the term to refer to Greco-Roman religiosity in academic journals. Nothing about it is a misnomer.

 

[Tomatekh]

Well, in CiV there was Dodekatheism (Greek) and Imperial Cult (Roman). None of which have anything to do with Hellenism, as that is a term to describe the spread of Greek culture, ergo a sociological term. It's quite a complex phenomenon, which was greatly enhanced by Alexander's conquests. Greco-Polytheism may be a bit of a long name, but it's far more accurate.

Hellenism and Hellenization are two different terms which you seem unable to separate. Although one of the definitions of Hellenism is Hellenization, the term Hellenism is more broad reaching and has multiple meanings in addition to also having the meaning of Hellenization. Hellenization, specifically, means the spread of Greek culture; Hellenism does not.

As I've offered numerous explanations for in the thread already, there is nothing inaccurate with using the term Hellenism as the name of the religion. Using the term Hellenization would be inaccurate for precisely the reasons you've been arguing, but I know enough about the religion and the terms associated with it to not have done that.

Hellenism at its most basic definition literally only means "ancient Greek culture or ideals." Things like Dodekatheism do actually fall under the term.

 

[Agent327]

That's correct. As indeed might 'imperial cult'. None of which makes Hellenism (or hellenization) a religion.

Actually, I call it Hellenism based on the various definitions of Hellenism and established usage of the term to refer to Greco-Roman religiosity in academic journals. Nothing about it is a misnomer.

I beg to differ with all of those statements.

Now what about the mod's functionality?

 

[Tomatekh]

That's correct. As indeed might 'imperial cult'.

But you literally just said:

Dodekatheism (Greek) and Imperial Cult (Roman). None of which have anything to do with Hellenism.

Please be consistent between your own replies.

I beg to differ with all of those statements.

Hellen + ism (Greek + system/condition of); Hellen + ize (Greek + to make).

As I said, you're being overly pedantic in insisting Hellenism means only one thing (to Hellenize) while ignoring all other definitions; something you've repeated numerous times. Hellenism does not, in fact, solely mean to make Greek and more literally just means a system of the Greeks. The religious system of the Greeks is something that falls under the term Hellenism. So, if talking in a very specified context, i.e. religion, Hellenism as a term would then mean the religion of the Greeks.

Otherwise, you're insisting on a definition of religion which is only appropriate in a modern sense and not to ancient peoples. Ancient religious practice pervaded and colored all aspects of life and would be more accurately compared to how we discuss culture today than how we would discuss religion. In fact, ancient Greek religion formed a fundamental component of Greek national identity. So, even outside a strictly religious context, Hellenism meaning nothing but the culture of the Greeks would still be an appropriate name for the Greek belief system. A somewhat flawed modern example is how Jewish can mean both a religious system and a cultural/national identity.


At this point I have nothing left to argue and in the future will just link dictionary and encyclopedia articles that discuss Hellenism as more than just:

Hellenism, as that is a term to describe the spread of Greek culture

Otherwise, you're free to not use the mod if you disagree with it.

 

[AngkorEmpire]

Thanks, finally I can turn America to TB!

 

[mushu's]

Hey, do you know if i there's any problem using the mod in spanish?

 

[JohannFarley]

I've managed to get to the point of founding a religion and I can't open the religion screen. I was able to use the great prophet, and see the screen when I only had a pantheon, but now I can't view it.

 

[Tomatekh]

Hey, do you know if i there's any problem using the mod in spanish?

I'm not sure as I haven't tried loading the game outside of English. I didn't include any Language_ES_ES txt keys and I'm unsure if the mod will display any text without them (or just default to English). Does anyone know? I'll see if I can test it later today. If it doesn't work, I'll add foreign language keys in an update in the near future.

I've managed to get to the point of founding a religion and I can't open the religion screen. I was able to use the great prophet, and see the screen when I only had a pantheon, but now I can't view it.

Did you overwrite the base game "Icons_Religions.xml" file with the one from the mod, as outlined in the first post? The religion screen won't work unless you do so.

 

[God of Kings]

Tomatekh, you could create another mod for modern religions for those wanting Scientology or Pastafarianism.

 

[Agent327]

Pastafarianism: people who religiously eat pasta and chill out.

I've managed to get to the point of founding a religion and I can't open the religion screen. I was able to use the great prophet, and see the screen when I only had a pantheon, but now I can't view it.

I couldn't even get the game to start with the mod on.

 

[Agent327]

Please be consistent between your own replies.

If you read properly, you might have noticed that's exactly what I'm doing. The Roman imperial cult didn't spring from 'Hellenism', nor did the Greek polyteism. The first just happened to fall within the time period we use to term Hellenism, and Greek polytheism is simply much older.

Hellen + ism (Greek + system/condition of); Hellen + ize (Greek + to make).

As I said, you're being overly pedantic in insisting Hellenism means only one thing (to Hellenize) while ignoring all other definitions; something you've repeated numerous times. Hellenism does not, in fact, solely mean to make Greek and more literally just means a system of the Greeks. The religious system of the Greeks is something that falls under the term Hellenism. So, if talking in a very specified context, i.e. religion, Hellenism as a term would then mean the religion of the Greeks.

Very nice. Except your making an argument about something I never said. This is known as the straw man argument.

Otherwise, you're insisting on a definition of religion which is only appropriate in a modern sense and not to ancient peoples. Ancient religious practice pervaded and colored all aspects of life and would be more accurately compared to how we discuss culture today than how we would discuss religion. In fact, ancient Greek religion formed a fundamental component of Greek national identity. So, even outside a strictly religious context, Hellenism meaning nothing but the culture of the Greeks would still be an appropriate name for the Greek belief system. A somewhat flawed modern example is how Jewish can mean both a religious system and a cultural/national identity.

Ah, pity you mentioned Jewish. There's nothing more national about being Jewish than there is religious about Hellenism.

At this point I have nothing left to argue and in the future will just link dictionary and encyclopedia articles that discuss Hellenism as more than just:

I can imagine. Unlike you I've actually read about Hellenism. But all your arguing and 'linking' apart, you didn't address the one point I made:

Hellenism isn't a religion.

Which was the one point that mattered.

 

[Azmodanrom]

Tomatekh, you could create another mod for modern religions for those wanting Scientology or Pastafarianism.

and add "Jedi Order"

 

[Qwynn]

I'm playing with ~30 mods, and it seems to be this one that is making me unable to start a new game. I'll set everything up accordingly, but it just goes from "Loading" to "Start game" and then back to the main menu.

I'm having the same issue, except I think I found the problem.

I don't have the Aztec pre-order DLC, and I think the mod might be looking for it?

Edit: Yeah, this is exactly the issue. A quick an easy fix for anything else without the Aztec DLC is to comment out the Montezuma reference at the bottom of HR_Religions.xml like so:

<!--   <Row LeaderType="LEADER_MONTEZUMA" ReligionType="RELIGION_TLATEOMATILIZTLI"/> -->

 

[Tomatekh]

I'm having the same issue, except I think I found the problem.

I don't have the Aztec pre-order DLC, and I think the mod might be looking for it?

Edit: Yeah, this is exactly the issue. A quick an easy fix for anything else without the Aztec DLC is to comment out the Montezuma reference at the bottom of HR_Religions.xml like so:

<!--   <Row LeaderType="LEADER_MONTEZUMA" ReligionType="RELIGION_TLATEOMATILIZTLI"/> -->

Thank you!

Yes, this seems to be the problem. I can fix it in the long term (as well as preventing the issue with future DLC) by switching the mod from XML to SQL and will do so in a future update. In the meantime, I've updated the instructions in the original post with your solution.

 

[Onii-chan]

Well I can't open the religion tab at all with this mod installed. Just does nothing if I click it

I do have the Religion Rebalance mod installed as well since earlier though; think they have some compatibility issues maybe?

 

[Tomatekh]

Well I can't open the religion tab at all with this mod installed. Just does nothing if I click it

I do have the Religion Rebalance mod installed as well since earlier though; think they have some compatibility issues maybe?

Did you overwrite the base game "Icons_Religions.xml" file with the one from the mod, as outlined in the first post? The religion screen won't work unless you do so.

I'll download the Religion Rebalance mod and look at its files to see if I can see anything.

 

[Onii-chan]

Did you overwrite the base game "Icons_Religions.xml" file with the one from the mod, as outlined in the first post? The religion screen won't work unless you do so.

I'll download the Religion Rebalance mod and look at its files to see if I can see anything.

Ow, sorry no just missed that, nvm :/
Works now

Guess I'm getting too used to the procedure of just download => extract => run all the time since that's usually all it takes :s

 

[Tomatekh]

Ow, sorry no just missed that, nvm :/
Works now

Guess I'm getting too used to the procedure of just download => extract => run all the time since that's usually all it takes :s

It's understandable. Unfortunately, it's the only way for modders to add custom icons at this time. We're all hoping the release of the official SDK will correct this.

Glad it all worked out!

 

[kul]

Keep the Greek Religion as Hellenism. Its familiar enough for most of us to sound greek-ish, and halfway right. Most people that plays for fun are just going to nod anyway. Smarks can just suck it.