Torture vs Drones

[Formaldehyde]

Far be it from me to disagree with Mr. Twain, but I know many who try with a pretty good degree of success in an industry with little locational flexibility.

That really doesn't have anything at all to do with success in an industry which is locally based. It has to do with the notion that many people seem to need to meet various others from disparate backgrounds and locations to realize how much we have in common with each other. That it is quite helpful to properly develop a sense of humanity which allows people to escape their prejudices and narrow-mindedness that frequently festers in such atmospheres.

See the graph I posted in a different thread of the percentage of Americans from various states who have passports for a great example.

Of course, it is no panacea either. For instance, there are some who join the military and are stationed overseas who don't seem to get over their bigotry despite being exposed to many other cultures. Instead, their experiences seem to just strengthen these feelings.

But I think in general it is indeed true.

 

[Flying Pig]

Perhaps you missed the real world application of the hypothetical I mentioned and that Form originally alluded to: a critically wounded afghani or a critically wounded US soldier. I'm sure that situation has indeed arisen.

The choice simply isnt impossible, as I am sure there are more than a few that have had to make this kind of choice over the last decade.

Our wounded, the rest of the wounded, our dead, the rest of the dead. So easy they teach it at Brecon.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Indeed. Any medic who did anything differently would be treated like a pariah, even if it was a certainty the soldier would die no matter what he did.

 

[MobBoss]

Indeed. Any medic who did anything differently would be treated like a pariah, even if it was a certainty the soldier would die no matter what he did.

This isnt always a given. This past veterans day the church I attend had a guest speaker that was a MAJ who lost a leg in the afghan war to an IED and suffered severe internal trauma as well. He should have been dead with the exception of the addition of a couple of people to his patrol that day that normally didnt go with him. In essence, the medic with them had dealt with such injuries before and actually stuck his hand into the MAJs body cavity to clamp down on his severed arty in his hip. Most medics would have tried to tie a tourniquet around the top of his ruined leg to stop the bleeding but that would have surely killed him.

My point being, its never a certainity that someone will die until they are actually dead. There are myriad examples of where a soldier should have died and somehow managed to pull thru to survive despite all the odds contrary.

 

[MobBoss]

Oh yeah. I learnt something about the Afghani situation you allude to. Forget the kid. Fix the soldier every time.

In real life, I'd have gone for the kid. But, you know, military discipline wins. Besides that I wouldn't want to get court martialed, my mates do have a high priority.

In real life you would be part of a team that are closer than your own brother to them, and you depend upon each other in life, blood and death.

In real life if you felt what its like to be part of such a team, you wouldnt turn your back upon them, and you certainly would make them a priority. Its not just about military discipline, its also having a shared bond with a group that no one else understands unless they've felt it too.

 

[Borachio]

I appreciate that. I have a sense of what camaraderie is.

 

[Camikaze]

If you had to make a choice and had to pick the life of your countryman or a foreigner, with all things being equal, who in the hell would pick the foreigner to live?

If the countryman in question was someone I knew, or related to me in some way, then I'd pick them, but merely being my countryman does not establish such a relationship. Why would I necessarily pick someone from Perth ahead of someone from Auckland? Why would you necessarily pick someone from Miami ahead of someone from Vancouver? If you wanted to look at it really absurdly, the size of the national pie is only so large, so bumping off someone who shares in it is more beneficial than the alternative. By saying that you would always pick your countryman, all else being equal, you're saying that nationality adds some marginal value to a person's worth. Your saying that you value the life of someone from Miami over the life of someone from Vancouver. Applying that to family or those you have a personal connection with may indeed be a tribal instinct that, although irreconcilable with ideals, is unavoidable. But applying it on a federal basis to people you don't know and will never meet and know or have any sort of personal connection with, particularly when your country is so large, doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[kochman]

So, what was the verdict?
Obama's ok using drones like this? A 3rd term if he wants? Our first born daughters if he wants?

In actuality I should have made a poll question with this OP.

 

[MobBoss]

I appreciate that. I have a sense of what camaraderie is.

Having a 'sense' of something simply isnt the same as actually realizing it.

Your saying that you value the life of someone from Miami over the life of someone from Vancouver. Applying that to family or those you have a personal connection with may indeed be a tribal instinct that, although irreconcilable with ideals, is unavoidable. But applying it on a federal basis to people you don't know and will never meet and know or have any sort of personal connection with, particularly when your country is so large, doesn't make much sense to me.

Hmm. Maybe its because of my military service, but I certainly do recognize more of a connection to an American (if not personal one) as opposed to say a Frenchman, Ethiopian or Persian.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I also feel more related to Dutchmen. But that doesn't mean I value them more than foreigners.

 

[Borachio]

Having a 'sense' of something simply isnt the same as actually realizing it..

It is if you appreciate my countrymen's taste for understatement.

 

[MobBoss]

I also feel more related to Dutchmen. But that doesn't mean I value them more than foreigners.

I'm not sure the argument is about value, but more about precedence.

So you wouldnt try to help a dutchman over a foreigner if you had to make such a choice? I'm sure you'd want to help both, but what if you couldnt, and you had to make such a choice? Would you feelings for Dutchmen be enough to tip the scales in your countrymans favor, all other things being equal?

 

[El_Machinae]

Choosing the foreigner can even help create, instead of reduce, international camaraderie.

Though it's an awfully specific hypothetical. The real life isn't a 1:1 choice.

 

[MobBoss]

Choosing the foreigner can even help create, instead of reduce, international camaraderie.

Though it's an awfully specific hypothetical. The real life isn't a 1:1 choice.

Sometimes real life is indeed such a choice.

And as the hypothetical is that specific, shouldnt that make it all the easier to answer?

 

[Flying Pig]

Even I have to say that I don't make that instinctive judgement - a person's a person.

 

[MobBoss]

Even I have to say that I don't make that instinctive judgement - a person's a person.

Well, the thing about instinctive judgement is you dont realize you made it until its already done.

I agree a person is a person. But just as you mentioned earlier, there is always a precedent involved - i.e. the small things that would move you to choose one over another. Now then, nationality may be a higher or lower precedent to any specific individual.....but its still a precedent. And thats all I am pointing out.

 

[kochman]

I also feel more related to Dutchmen. But that doesn't mean I value them more than foreigners.

You may not value them more...

But, if you had to choose from a cheesehead from Zandfort am See or an Mongolian businessman (do they have those?), to save, who would you save?

I think a lot of us would opt for people you have more (seemingly) in common with...

 

[Camikaze]

Mongolia is in need of development and could do with all the entrepreneurial skill it can get. I appreciate gouda as much as the next bloke, but I'm sure Ziggy doesn't mind doing his bit to marginally reduce the size of the European agricultural industry. Such concerns would be far more material than nationality.

 

[Borachio]

Well, the thing about instinctive judgement is you dont realize you made it until its already done.

I agree a person is a person. But just as you mentioned earlier, there is always a precedent involved - i.e. the small things that would move you to choose one over another. Now then, nationality may be a higher or lower precedent to any specific individual.....but its still a precedent. And thats all I am pointing out.

Supposing your choice was: you could save only one of your sons. Which one would you choose? There is a natural precedent based on age. Would you employ it?

Supposing you simply liked one son better than the other (it does happen), which one would you choose then?

As for kinship precedence, whom do you rate higher? Yourself or your wife?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I would far more likely make the choice based on age and sex than I would nationality. That would rank very low in any possible criteria I might use.

How does someone even know the nationality in an emergency situation, especially with Americans? Are you quizzing them before deciding? Is it important when their ancestors first moved here in case they are both Americans?

Granted, the military does try to imbue in their personnel the notion that they should have extreme loyalty to all their fellow soldiers. But I would contend that this is so highly ingrained through training and repetitive exercises because it is so alien to many under similar circumstances. Many civilians would likely overreact if their best friend was facing immediate peril a few hundred yards away, or if the life of a woman or child was in jeopardy. They might very well decide to abandon their immediate responsibilities to other soldiers nearby to try to personally save their lives.