[TOT] &ToTPP with Lua : EpicWWiiEurope

[tootall_2012]

Hi Dadais,

Looking at the map I noticed that French North Africa actually has more cities than the British Isles (39 vs 27). Besides Casablanca, Marrakesh, Fez, Tangiers, Oran, Algiers, Bizerte and Tunis I don't believe there would have been any other city of any consequence (either economically, militarily or politically) in this region in this period. Is there any reason in particular you chose to add them? What role, if any, will they play in the overall scheme?

 

[Dadais]

Hi Dadais,

Looking at the map I noticed that French North Africa actually has more cities than the British Isles (39 vs 27). Besides Casablanca, Marrakesh, Fez, Tangiers, Oran, Algiers, Bizerte and Tunis I don't believe there would have been any other city of any consequence (either economically, militarily or politically) in this region in this period. Is there any reason in particular you chose to add them? What role, if any, will they play in the overall scheme?

You saw it well.

I think the main reason for it goes to the map used to build the previous casual version of the scenario, which was a french one from the time of the war.

I plan to use this representation to display difficulties to keep on check such a territory. Some cities in the urss periphery or in the balkan per exemple shall play this role too.

I have ideas in mind on that side, introducing divisions number limitations with De Jure and conquered territories factored by a population weight and "mobilisation levels" techs.

I may also induce further armies upkeep (factored by type and health) to represent maintenance in relation with corresponding techs to interact in fight.

This, to give more interest in the weak "order forces" units supposed to be struggling with independentisms or resistences, ultimatly with partisans troops when entire divisions would roll on them, meaning spreading some forces to occupy land.
(I plan to have new "order forces" unit have birth from infantry divisions one way or another).

That said, some of theses cities, probably 4 to 6, in Maghreb are too much and shall be destroyed too.

.

So, to put it simply, controling Maghreb, while not providing a lot on economic, productive or political part (oil is another question) shall cost some spread manpower to avoid heavy complications harder to solve with "costly" divisions, be it mecanized or infantry, to roll over.

Bigger cities in England would cost less manpower per tile yet probably more manpower per city to control equally and would be easier to solve, divisions to check having less miles to travel.

 

[Dadais]

Still learning, there about planes to personalize them, I realized some shall not be used.

The Mig15 was coming too late to be used there.
On the other side, the B29 wasn't used in europe, wouldn't have been unless maybe if England fell, and poses an issue with its (tile) range.

Maybe have I forgotten some important planes too ?
Early ones (like biplans) got dimissed in this scenario, considering they kindoff got crushed in ww2, weren't they ?

Plus, many planes ranges would imply the use of the totpp.movementMultipliers library in game with lua.

 

[Dadais]

Altered cities distribution :
-with @tootall_2012 nice observation, destroyed five minor french cities in Maghreb
-on the other side, added Lerwick in UK, providing few more tiles to operate bombing raid in norway seas and lands
-furthermore, moved Treves city two tiles away, nearer from Luxembourg and away from Sarre, and added three rather important cities in Germany ; namely Augsbourg, Halle and Kassel.

Also, took advantage of the machine gains with the method used to define regions to have more of them :

 

[Dadais]

With only the URSS left and ongoing, found a map of administrative divisions in URSS to use.

That's somehow cruel towards the map built by a french newspaper in 1940 previously used to design Europe.

Renamed quite a few soviet cities, added the (low importance) Narian Mar city in the north (small interaction in the region with oil operation planned for region owner), added the (high importance) Stalino city in Ukraine.

 

[Dadais]

So, took time to think about units (having in mind @voltar previous kind words), their use and planned representation in this scenario in conjunction with planned alterations of combat system.

This benefited in freeing some unit slots, took advantage of this to reorganize the slot orders and add some units, thus ending at the moment with this plan :

I was willing to have a plane transport to make paras face full AA threat yet abandonned that idea considering AI handling.
1 slot is left. Ideas may fill it.

 

[JPetroski]

I'm sorry I've missed the developments of this exciting scenario recently (I love that map by the way--I wish it were around when I was building HoF!)

Anyway

The Mig15 was coming too late to be used there.
On the other side, the B29 wasn't used in europe, wouldn't have been unless maybe if England fell, and poses an issue with its (tile) range.

No B-29s were used in Europe though if the war went on indefinitely, who knows.
The MiG-15 depends on if you're having this go to the old "Luft '46" realm or not as its beyond the war certainly, and I believe was built with the help of captured German engineers and examples.

Maybe have I forgotten some important planes too ?
Early ones (like biplans) got dimissed in this scenario, considering they kindoff got crushed in ww2, weren't they ?

-The 190 art you have is for a Dora which is a late-model airplane. It was a beast and might have been a game changer had it showed up in numbers earlier but didn't. If your intention is to have "early" (109) "mid" (190) "late" (262) then I'd suggest using an A model instead (A5/6 would be a good midwar plane).

-I'd go with the Macchi C205 (1943) rather than 202 (1941) for similar reasons.

-Your Spitfire is a late war monster, the Spit XIV, but the Spitfire itself was most uniquely problematic for Germany until about the advent of the Fw190 which at first ruled the roost until the Spit IX showed up in June 1942. I might catch some flak from our British friends but really I'd have the Spit be a very good early-war fighter that Germany has to contend with and potentially up its stats later in the war if you want to keep it boosted. Frankly, the 109 would be the same thing (a late model 109 being quite different than the early Emils).

-Unless you have some specific lua means to make it meaningful, that Gladiator is going to be a hanger queen.

-Yak numbering doesn't make sense like other aircraft. That 7 you have is actually earlier than the 3, which was arguably the best widescale model. The Yak 1/7 was contemporary of the MiG-3 you're also using (1940 bird). Do you really need 2 Russian biplanes, 2 Russian 1940 aircraft? I'd suggest that in keeping with "early, mid, late" you pick one of the biplanes, grab something like an La-5 (1942 mid), and Yak-3 (1944) for late. You might use the extra slot for the B-24 which was very widely used in the theatre, especially in the Mediterranean.

-Not sure why you'd need both a blenheim and a wellington.

-The He177 was horrid and possibly not what you're looking for (I assume that is your long range bomber)? Perhaps the 277 would make more sense, even though it wasn't produced in the real war (darn it, it could be in yours!)

-The Ta152 was arguably the finest non-jet aircraft Germany actually produced and had it been available in large numbers things may well have been different, but if your "late" German fighter is the 262, it would fill a different role. Honestly, the decision to mass produce these effective yet not glamorous birds vs. the 262s is a decision tree now two of my scenarios (OTR and HoF) have forced folks down.

Just some initial thoughts/help but feel free to disregard all of it. It's not every day I get to talk airplanes here

 

[Dadais]

To explain a little,

-Infantries shall represent "infantry divisions". They all include small artillery bataillon usable to bombard and on defense.
-Commandos shall represent elite battalions, very strong attackers with usefull tricks yet unable to fight many rounds and frails if overnumbered by a division.
-Officers shall represent infantry small infantry regiments keeping order in motherland and occupied territories.
-Horsemen and armored car shall represent cavalry divisions.
-Tank shall represent armored divisions.
-Artilleries, aa guns and SP artilleries shall represent specialized regiments too. Even if frail, they shall provide good help on the field.
-Ships and planes didn't got fully planned yet for their initial disposition (ship + escort, small groups of ships ? / dozen of planes ? Four dozen for one unit ?). It is whoshed to personalize firepower both on the represented unit abilities, and on the according bonuses considering bonus technologies evolving weapons too.

Reading @JPetroski post, there will be some changes with planes then
Much thanks John, your expertise revealed in OTR overshadows by far the few hours I spent reading.
Your remarks are the most valuable !

 

[Dadais]

So, first, most of your points will result in changes without me questionning it

Unless you have some specific lua means to make it meaningful, that Gladiator is going to be a hanger queen.

I kind of understood both Italy and UK used these planes in the early of african campain (and in Iraki war for both sides), and such biplans were widely used by many not for long "neutral" countries too ?
So shall it be used in the west first campaigns for the russian, isn't it ?

Was I wrong ?

Not sure why you'd need both a blenheim and a wellington

Tiny knowledge on my side I guess. Could you please explain me that issue deeper please ?

I love that map by the way--I wish it were around when I was building HoF!

I'm glad you didn't, as I'm sure the few you loose with the lapland's operations towards Mourmansk is by far earned in the African theatre !

 

[JPetroski]

If you don't mind my asking, what are all the different supply trucks for/why does every nation need one?

 

[Dadais]

If you don't mind my asking, what are all the different supply trucks for/why does every nation need one?

They're supposed to be ephemeral transporter-like units to get from one operation theatre to another.
The personalisation is on cosmetic purpose only.

 

[JPetroski]

Tiny knowledge I guess. Could you please explain me that issue deeper please ?

Well it's just that they're both early war bombers used by the Brits. I suppose the same arguments could be made regarding later models (like the Halifax and Lancaster) being more or less contemporaries (and indeed the B-17 and B-24 that I recommended). But, basically, they're two units that serve the same purpose, for the same time frame, and that time frame is the minority of your scenairo.

I kind of understood both Italy and UK used these planes in the early of african campain (and in Iraki war for both sides), and such biplans were widely used by many not for long "neutral" countries too ?
So shall it be used in the west first campaigns for the russian, isn't it ?

Was I wrong ?

I actually was wrong because I forgot it was Swordfish vs. Gladiators that took on the Bismarck which was why I was scratching my head. Anyway, you're not wrong, but I'd argue that most everywhere (with perhaps a few peripheral exceptions) that you'd find Gladiators early in the war, you'd also find Hurricanes.

 

[Dadais]

Well it's just that they're both early war bombers used by the Brits. I suppose the same arguments could be made regarding later models (like the Halifax and Lancaster) being more or less contemporaries (and indeed the B-17 and B-24 that I recommended). But, basically, they're two units that serve the same purpose, for the same time frame, and that time frame is the minority of your scenairo.

I'll check the abilities of these anyway to personnalize them. Shall variations may occur and have their importances ?

I actually was wrong because I forgot it was Swordfish vs. Gladiators that took on the Bismarck which was why I was scratching my head. Anyway, you're not wrong, but I'd argue that most everywhere (with perhaps a few peripheral exceptions) that you'd find Gladiators early in the war, you'd also find Hurricanes.

I remembered the Iraki seeing only few gladiators (and maybe one blenheim ?), forces beeing mostly sent in Egypt, and reading about Malta's gladiators until 1940's summer ?
That gives few turns in this scenario (beginning in sept. 1939) ?

 

[JPetroski]

I'll check the abilities of these anyway to personnalize them. Shall variations may occur and have their importances ?

hey it's your dance - you do what you want I'm just giving some advice on where you might find stuff you can add to the chopping block if you need space later on.

I remembered the Iraki seeing only few gladiators (and maybe one blenheim ?), forces beeing mostly sent in Egypt, and reeding about Malta's gladiators until 1940's summer ?
That gives few turn in this scenario (beginning in sept. 1939) ?

Oh I'm sorry I thought your scenario started in May 1940. I suppose if it starts in 1939 it makes more sense. Malta's Faith, Hope and Charity were indeed of the type.

 

[Dadais]

Oh I'm sorry

Don't you dare be sorry when you give sooo much advices of such great value !

 

[Dadais]

Here's a quick update before collecting data about these planes thanks to @JPetroski !

You may have noticed the change on the bunker too, going along with a change with the fortress :

 

[Dadais]

So, @JPetroski, it seems Beaufighters, Blenheims, Wellingtons and Halifaxes do show significant differences, justifying their uses.

Spoiler basic data :

(I'm regulary correcting datas to estimate ending game values)

On the other side, I'm questionning the use of the TA152, when the Me262 inferior to it represented the technological next propulsion level, and could have been enhance would german engineers have been able to study the meteor's engines ?
Could the TA152 somehow be considered like the master ending version of the fw190 ?

Reading about the B24, I realized you were right : it should be proposed indeed ! Thus, at the cost of another plane.

On another side, is the italian CA310 relevant between early heavy fighters ? Or should it be the sacrifice to the b24 arrival ?

 

[JPetroski]

You'll find major differences between aircraft stats but a Blenheim and a Wellington are both outdated aircraft that will be replaced asap by Lancs and Halifaxes, which are contemporaries too.

If you have two spaces to spare units that fill the same role, there's no harm in having both.

The beaufighter in Europe was almost always used as a nightlight. Of course, most of the British heavies were used mostly at night.

The Ta152 was an exceptional aircraft at the high altitudes the Americans flew at. With complete respect, the stats your picking only tell part of the story. To truly compare aircraft you'd want to consider relative performance bands at altitudes, as well as considerations well beyond speeds. Climb rate, turn radius, etc. All would play roles too -- and all of these are apt to change depending on the altitudes.

Take a P47 down on the deck and it was a dog. At 28k it would eat most German fighters alive... but not the Ta152.

 

[Dadais]

With complete respect, the stats your picking only tell part of the story. To truly compare aircraft you'd want to consider relative performance bands at altitudes, as well as considerations well beyond speeds. Climb rate, turn radius, etc. All would play roles too -- and all of these are apt to change depending on the altitudes.

That's damn true, and I'm afraid of the job it is involving (first to gather mass of data, second to evaluate them despite me beeing a noob on that subject)

.

Took some vacation time altering Netherland landmass, Belgium Albert Canal and these two countries fortification lines.

The previous fortresses on frontiers are abandonned, trying to stick more with history, as the frontiers will have their units against stupid AI and silly human invasions.

 

[JPetroski]

These are from a video game, but a well-researched one that takes pains to have accurate flight models. Here's a look at the Ta152 (top) vs. the Fw190A5 (middle) and then against the P-47D40 (bottom), which would be a late war version of the Jug. Note that while the A5 is quite nimble down low, performance drops off significantly above 20,000 feet, whereas the Ta152's climb rate stays more consistent at altitude, and its air speed gets better and better. It also had much larger wings which would allow it to maneuver much better in the thin air. As you can see, at just military power, the 152 was faster than the 47 and significantly moreso with emergency power. And, of course, it had a center mount 30mm cannon with a pair of 20mms in the wings for some pretty devastating firepower.

Anyway, I wouldn't go into that much detail on all planes but suffice it to say, "yes," the 152 was a significant upgrade. There's another game (Gary Grigsby's Bombing the Reich) where it's against most house rules to rush these sooner than they were available in the real war as they tear things up so bad.