Right now I take Imperialism if I get at least 2 yield percentage monopolies. Non-percentage ones suck late. How about adding some synergy with luxury resources and monopolies here? Like, have every unique luxury provide +1 supply, and make Great Admiral help you at monopolies too by providing 2 copies of a random resource that already exists and you own. You might get enough of those sneaky Marbles for +10% Culture that are 80 tiles away from each other without having to conquer those 10 cities inbetween, who knows.
Opener: +33% GG/GA generation, +1 sight to all units, +1 move to naval/embarked.
Scaler: +3 XP to all new and existing units, -5% production unit cost
Finisher: Ironsides to sea, Range to air. Land units receive Morale if they don't have it already.
Martial Law: Constabulary +1 Happiness. +1 supply for every unique resource you own, upgrade cost -25%.
Exploitation: Farm, Plantation, Camp +1F +1P, Ocean, Lake Coast +1S +1P. Great Admirals also grant you 2 copies of a random resource already present on the map.
Regimental System - +5S +2C as now. Great Generals get +2 movement and ignore terrain costs.
Colonialism - Triple monopoly bonus, but percentage bonuses are only doubled. Puppets provide +10% yields.
Civilizing Mission - Gold and free Factory for every conquered city. No gold cost for garrisons.
Right now I take Imperialism if I get at least 2 yield percentage monopolies. Non-percentage ones suck late. How about adding some synergy with luxury resources and monopolies here? Like, have every unique luxury provide +1 supply, and make Great Admiral help you at monopolies too by providing 2 copies of a random resource that already exists and you own. You might get enough of those sneaky Marbles for +10% Culture that are 80 tiles away from each other without having to conquer those 10 cities inbetween, who knows.
Opener: +33% GG/GA generation, +1 sight to all units, +1 move to naval/embarked.
Scaler: +3 XP to all new and existing units, -5% production unit cost
Finisher: Ironsides to sea, Range to air. Land units receive Morale if they don't have it already.
Martial Law: Constabulary +1 Happiness. +1 supply for every unique resource you own, upgrade cost -25%.
Exploitation: Farm, Plantation, Camp +1F +1P, Ocean, Lake Coast +1S +1P. Great Admirals also grant you 2 copies of a random resource already present on the map.
Regimental System - +5S +2C as now. Great Generals get +2 movement and ignore terrain costs.
Colonialism - Triple monopoly bonus, but percentage bonuses are only doubled. Puppets provide +10% yields.
Civilizing Mission - Gold and free Factory for every conquered city. No gold cost for garrisons.
I agree with you thst industry out produces. But how much? Produced units at this point in the game get a promotion over bought units...so they already are better quality. How much unit production do we think would fix the gap?
I push this point because unit production is already baked into the tree. It’s a very simple matter to bump that up to be more competitive with industry
I think the problem is that imperialism isn't shining as a wide victory branch.
Industry demands heavy quality from a tall empire of whose infrastructure can afford.
Same with rationalism where thickness serves to benefit them the most toward a victory making it hard for spies to steal technology while advancing very quickly in enlightenment.
Imperialism doesn't have that essence in being a wide branch. The current imperialism demands that you improve your colonies while on the homefront you output more military. Instead it should be promoting you go wider with promoting weaker and overexpanded colonies instead of stable colonies.
I dislike the scaler proposal, not sure about everything else.
I finally get the understranding of why i disliked Imperialism so much. Thing is that if you take Imperialism - you need to be in a constant war, otherwise you loose. Litereally right now Imperialism might be okay in terms of strength, but it is like take 3rd Imperialism policy, declare a war and never end it until the end of the game, otherwise you have almost zero bonuses compared to Industry or Rationalism
It is good to have a more war-oriented policy tree, but not to the point where you can't stop fighting in order not to loose your advantage. I strongly advise to move Imperialism towards wide-puppet policy tree instead of moving it to even more warmonger policy tree. I would like it to be a tree that you can take if you want conquer your neighbour or if you already did and you have tonns of puppets, but there should be a way out of war, some economic stuff that can can help you to win the game vs other trees without capturing them
EDIT: Maybe give it a heavy boost to vassals? So that you need to conquer someone, but you can stop after and get strong benefits from it
I dislike the scaler proposal, not sure about everything else.
I finally get the understranding of why i disliked Imperialism so much. Thing is that if you take Imperialism - you need to be in a constant war, otherwise you loose. Litereally right now Imperialism might be okay in terms of strength, but it is like take 3rd Imperialism policy, declare a war and never end it until the end of the game, otherwise you have almost zero bonuses compared to Industry or Rationalism
It is good to have a more war-oriented policy tree, but not to the point where you can't stop fighting in order not to loose your advantage. I strongly advise to move Imperialism towards wide-puppet policy tree instead of moving it to even more warmonger policy tree. I would like it to be a tree that you can take if you want conquer your neighbour or if you already did and you have tonns of puppets, but there should be a way out of war, some economic stuff that can can help you to win the game vs other trees without capturing them
EDIT: Maybe give it a heavy boost to vassals? So that you need to conquer someone, but you can stop after and get strong benefits from it
I'm really liking the idea of Imperialism making large numbers of puppet cities viable again. Industry is currently a much better pick for wide empires, especially if you don't intend to keep fighting offensive wars. I also agree that Imperialism should not only benefit Domination victories and constant warfare. That is the domain of the warfare tenants of Autocracy and (to a lesser extent) Order. Imperialism is so close to offering solid benefits for large, wide empires that are looking to control and exploit CSs and build diplomatic as well as military power (which go hand-in-hand in VP). I feel that the main difference between the economic powers of Industry and Imperialism should be that in Industry your gold and production come from within (building up the infrastructure of your homeland cities), and in Imperialism your gold, production, and other yields should come from the weakened puppets and CSs you control.
Also, I thematically like the idea of Hidden Antiquity Sites being moved to Imperialism to give it a culture yields injection that revolves around stealing history and culture from other Civs' pasts.
I like the idea of Imperialism buffing puppets. Not so much hidden antiquity sites. It’s not so much just that Artistry already does this, but that it’s an iconic finisher ability for Artistry. I don’t mind different trees getting some overlap if they’re mundane passive bonuses, but if it’s something that unlocks a completely new feature of the game, making it less exclusive makes the whole tree feel less special. And it’s really not that good a mechanical fit with Imperialism as it’s been conceived so far.
Yeah, btw i think that moving hidden antiquity sites is HUGE and must be done with great caution. I understand the idea behind this, but this might make tourism victory unachievable on higher difficulties. It is very common on Deity to be just 10 turns late to Archaeology and suddenly you have nothing to dig but the Hidden Sites. They were something that was giving you an edge over everyone else. Sites that you can dig and everyone else can not. It might lead to a situation where you are forced to play Imperialism to acvieve Tourism victory on Deity
Yeah, btw i think that moving hidden antiquity sites is HUGE and must be done with great caution. I understand the idea behind this, but this might make tourism victory unachievable on higher difficulties. It is very common on Deity to be just 10 turns late to Archaeology and suddenly you have nothing to dig but the Hidden Sites. They were something that was giving you an edge over everyone else. Sites that you can dig and everyone else can not. It might lead to a situation where you are forced to play Imperialism to acvieve Tourism victory on Deity
I agree. I think moving the hidden sites is too much of a game changer st this point in the mod. We are fundamentally altering 2 trees and a victory condition...when we just need some buffs to imperialism.
Yeah, btw i think that moving hidden antiquity sites is HUGE and must be done with great caution. I understand the idea behind this, but this might make tourism victory unachievable on higher difficulties. It is very common on Deity to be just 10 turns late to Archaeology and suddenly you have nothing to dig but the Hidden Sites. They were something that was giving you an edge over everyone else. Sites that you can dig and everyone else can not. It might lead to a situation where you are forced to play Imperialism to acvieve Tourism victory on Deity
On Deity - for sure. Not only Artistry, Tradition is also a must. In 70% cases 3rd tree is Industry because of Broadway and those hammers, but sometimes Rationalism may work (getting faster to Radio and Stadium and stuff like this.)
this Conversation is getting more to the heart of the problem, let’s keep going.
So the problem is that rationalism, industry and imperialism are meant to be tall, thick and wide, respectively. Currently, industry is a good thick tree, but it also is managing to be a better wide tree than imperialism. The main culprit is puppets being a drag on empires, but there are other factors.
Real world imperialism is known for specific things which I think lend well to a wide, semi domination tree. I’ll list current and possible bonuses for each aspect.
Legend: Already in Imperialism in green Already seriously considered by >1 person in this thread in blue New idea, or unpopular one in red ideas requiring new code in italics
Military:
Spoiler:
Overview:
Imperialism is a system of subjugation of client peoples without fully commiting to eradicating, integrating or mixing into them. Western imperialism specifically leveraged Europe's political, financial, and scientific advantages against less developed nations. Specifically, the use of firearms and powerful ships were used to project power.
None of the imperial powers ever had much numerical advantage, but they used more sophisticated tactics, logistics, training and equipment to punch well above their numerical weight, often defeating armies at more than 10x as large.
Imperial projects, outside of Japan's 'co-prosperity sphere' pre-dated air units by a large amount. I would recommend moving air benefits to autocracy.
Game mechanics:
Bonuses to ranged units and naval units.
Bonuses which allow you to leverage more advantage vs. a technologically inferior foe
Faster movement on roads and railroads for military units
Faster and more dangerous boats
No bonuses to air units
Specific bonus possibilities: +1 move and sight to naval and embarked units
+20% defense to naval +10% bonus on GrAdmirals
Increased Unit Supply from Fleet Repair Action +50% bonus vs melee units (Melee only, not gunpowder. unlikely to be many civs left using them, but let Imperialism player just DEMOLISH obsolete units) -10% CS to all enemy units in 2 tiles of ranged units (upgraded Covering fire, call it 'Suppressing Fire'). It's weird that imperialism doesn't boost the maxim gun.) Faster movement on roads & railroads. (units could get +1 move when starting turn on roads, or all land units can use enemy roads)
Monopolies & the Privatization of Empire:
Spoiler:
Overview:
European powers created massive joint stock companies in order to prosecute their wars of conquest. These companies were awarded state monopolies on trade within their sphere of influence, and were tasked with profitability first, conquest second. This led to incredible innovations in how war could be managed, financed, and made profitable. The shift of motives away from outright conquest allowed companies a free hand to meddle in the local politics of places, fueling strife, and triggering internecine wars against historical foes in a region. These companies funded private armies, often dwarfing the militaries of their country of origin. The empires of Europe also employed mercenaries and dominated people in their own wars. The most famous examples were Ghurkas, Sepoys, Zouaves and Goumiers.
Examples of these companies include the Northwest Company, The Dutch East India Companies, The Hudsons Bay Company, The South Sea Company, etc.
Game mechanics:
Increased Monopoly bonuses
reduced unit gold maintenance
Puppet cities happiness needs reduction
Puppet cities more productive
Increase reward for Minor civ quests vs other civs (destroy rival CS, denouce player, declare war vs player, etc.)
Boosts to unit purchasing
access to special mercenary units
Specific bonus possibilities: Double Monopoly bonuses
-15% defense to unit maintenance (swap free garrison with authority. The flat unit maintenance boost makes more sense here) Reduce unhappiness from needs on Puppets
Increase yields generated from puppets Triple rewards from minor civ quests which hurt other civs. major or minor Reduced war weariness and warmonger penalties
Unlock special units like the Ghurka or Foreign Legion
Exoticization and Orientalism:
Spoiler:
Overview:
The European imperial projects sparked interest in other cultures in the European populace. Wonders from the Orient, fantastical works of fiction and fantasies of far-off, untamed lands. Tarzan, Aladdin, the American Cowboy, Jungle Book, crazes like Egyptomania, the importing of exotic animals, fabrics, perfumes and cuisine. The Imperial experiments broadened the perspectives of the European everyman and made him think about a world outside his own experiences.
Game Mechanics:
Boosts to Voyages of Discovery (VoD)
Boosts to exploration
Cultural and GPP boosts for conquests
Boosts to Archaeology
Specific bonus possibilities: Gold, or some other yield from Conquest Increased luxuries from VoD
More Luxury diversity from VoD
Move Hidden Antiquity Sites to Imperialism Gold on exploration to all naval units Double Happiness from Natural wonders VoDs reveal tiles Archaeologists can enter rival territory without open borders
Archaeologists are invisible (like a submarine)
Archaeologists are cheaper, and move faster (ignore terrain, or + movement) Instant Science and Culture from completing archaeological digs
Mercantilism and Expropriation:
Spoiler:
Overview:
Imperialism was about making war profitable. As a result, Europeans looted, and enslaved throughout the world. Apologists of empire will say we gave back as much as we took. Europe gave science, law, political institutions. They built railroads and distributed medicine, but in return they triggered famines, took cultural treasures, blocked trade that wasn't with the mother country, and centralized the wealth of the earth into Europe.
Game Mechanics:
Tile improvements from military improvements
General tile improvements
Increased internal trade route yields
Increased yields from trade routes to/from puppets
Higher tile yields and yields in general from Puppet cities
Bonuses in the Capital for each Puppet
Boosts to Great work stealing, and Wonder stealing
Specific bonus possibilities: Tile bonuses on Ocean, farm and plantations
Bonuses to military buildings, citadels and forts Increase healing and yields from pillaging Happiness or Culture in Capital for each puppet city Increased yields on luxuries worked by puppet cities Increased yields for unoccupied cities for every puppet city Yields on conquest which scale with how many wonders are built in the city
Enhanced Spy action for stealing Great works from other civs
Enhanced Spy action for assassinating great people
Summary: I think the tree is generally overemphasizing military at the expense of wide play, and its ability to administer and benefit from conquests the player has already made. The policy tree is beat out by Industry if it tries to compete on infrastructure, production and gold, it has to be. Instead, the tree should be focused on expansion. Big borders, lots of cities, lots of tile resources, and your ability to have a small, effective military move across and add to that empire. Changing the placement of hidden antiquity sites might be thematic, but it's a real pandora's box for balance because it is such a cornerstone of Artistry right now.
My attempt at a new Imperialism policy tree:
General changes: Puppet cities Generate 25% of //, and only 25%(unhappiness from yields calculated normally. 75% reduction in yields and unhappiness applied after normal needs calculations.)
Opener: +1 sight, +1 move to naval/embarked and Great Admirals. +5 HP and +5 to pillaging on all military units (land and sea). +5% Unit Production. Scaler: +5% unit production,+1 HP and +3 to pillaging on all military units Colonialism: Double monopoly bonuses.Puppets provide +15% //(40% up from 25%). Martial Law Orientalism:Great Admiral Voyages of Discovery give 2 copies of 2 different luxury resources and +2 Unit Supply from Fleet Repair.Archaeologists ignore terrain and closed borders. +1 Happiness for every Museum on Empire. Exploitation: +1/ to Farms, Plantations, and Camps, +1/ to Ocean, Lake, and Coast. Military Units can be upgraded in territory owned by friendly City-States. Regimental System: +5/+2 to Barracks, Armories, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels.+10% CS to Great Admirals. Civilizing Mission Presidency Army:-15% Unit Maintenance. Naval units receive the Ironsides Promotion.Ranged land units receive the Suppressing Fire promotion (-10% CS to enemy units within 2 tiles) Finisher: Unlocks Pentagon. Can buy Great Admirals.-30% Needs modifier from Puppet cities. Large sum of Gold and Science for conquering cities.
Reasons for changes:
Spoiler:
I realized bonuses to air make much more sense in ideologies, and are anachronistic for Imperialism.
There's little reference to the private armies used by these colonial powers. The civilizing mission idea was moved to the finisher because it was unwieldly, and it's a bit too "white man's burden" for my liking.
Orientalism needs to make an appearance, it makes so much sense with people wanted to add a bit more culture, archaeology, and wanting to boost VoDs. It's the perfect match.
On Deity - for sure. Not only Artistry, Tradition is also a must. In 70% cases 3rd tree is Industry because of Broadway and those hammers, but sometimes Rationalism may work (getting faster to Radio and Stadium and stuff like this.)
1- That's not true. Industry is good for tall. (And wide) Rationalism is good for wide. (And tall.) Imperialism is not good right now.
2- Thick is not a thing. I repeat: Thick is not a thing. I respect Engiseer greatly, but I could not disagree with his concept of 'thick' more. It's a silly nonsensical claim that most people referencing it don't represent well. I'm happy to debate it with him if he'd like (Or anyone I guess.) but that needs to start with clearly stating what you believe thick to be.
As for your proposal:
Probably requires tons of new code. (Adding HP to units especially)
I don't know why you want puppets to provide unhappiness. They wouldn't be OP if they provided none, because the benefit gained by avoiding happiness all together is offset by the opportunity cost of only getting 25% yields.
The Goths in the sack of rome scenario had increased HP from pillaging, so it's already in the DLL, it just needs to be adjusted. Unless G cut it out.
Anything which requires new code is italicized, but the HP on pillage is the only one which hasn't generally been discussed before. The rest of the new code relates either to puppets or GAs, things G has already agreed need to be modified. The +10% CS was suggested by G himself.
I don't know why you want puppets to provide unhappiness. They wouldn't be OP if they provided none, because the benefit gained by avoiding happiness all together is offset by the opportunity cost of only getting 25% yields.
It's not really a matter of preference, and we are debating a pure hypothetical, but I intuit that having 0 effect on happiness will not be balanced. The difference between 0 and 10 is 3x bigger than the difference between 10 and 20, if you get me. Puppets can build happiness buildings (arenas, zoos, etc.), and they tend to sink the average needs calculations. This makes puppet cities always happiness-positive, and happiness would cease to be a problem at all for domination civs.
2- Thick is not a thing. I repeat: Thick is not a thing. I respect Engiseer greatly, but I could not disagree with his concept of 'thick' more. It's a silly nonsensical claim that most people referencing it don't represent well. I'm happy to debate it with him if he'd like (Or anyone I guess.) but that needs to start with clearly stating what you believe thick to be.
It's simple. If I have have 20 something cities by renaissance and see no end to expansion, I went wide. If I have 10-15 strong cities and see the rest of the world in an opportunistic light, I went thick. Though you can argue that it's inevitably wide, it only leads to it. Any less in a situation where new cities are almost entirely to deal with other civs instead of the most optimal way to improve my civ, I went tall.
I'm not a fan of your other proposals, but I do think ranged land units could do with some attention. No better place than Imperialism and this would be a good start.
agree. gonna take it a step further also, "Tall" is not a thing. VP has done away with this vanilla concept the moment happiness stopped being a finite resource you had to distribute between cities that grew TALL (each pop always taking 1 happiness away) or using that same finite amount of happiness on MORE cities (each base city taking away 4 happiness), which by necessity would leave them to be low pop cities.
In VP you can have any number of cities grow to a very high population, since happiness is no longer a finite number being tied directly to pop, hence "Tall" is literally not a thing anymore. Note that I dont expect anybody to stop saying it though =)
The reality in VP is "Small" empires and "Wide" empires, with Wide being seen by basically every AI as "Normal". Small can be an intentional game strategy for a multitude of reasons, or you could end up that way due to circumstances beyond your control, however AI only knows 1 way to play VP and thats when they see good vacant land they could take, they take it.
agree. gonna take it a step further also, "Tall" is not a thing. VP has done away with this vanilla concept the moment happiness stopped being a finite resource you had to distribute between cities that grew TALL (each pop always taking 1 happiness away) or using that same finite amount of happiness on MORE cities (each base city taking away 4 happiness), which by necessity would leave them to be low pop cities.
In VP you can have any number of cities grow to a very high population, since happiness is no longer a finite number being tied directly to pop, hence "Tall" is literally not a thing anymore. Note that I dont expect anybody to stop saying it though =)
The reality in VP is "Small" empires and "Wide" empires, with Wide being seen by basically every AI as "Normal". Small can be an intentional game strategy for a multitude of reasons, or you could end up that way due to circumstances beyond your control, however AI only knows 1 way to play VP and thats when they see good vacant land they could take, they take it.
The game still pushes these concepts. There's too many civs on both constant expansion and centralized bonuses. City count itself doesn't define the concepts so much as how bonuses spread out, if you ask me. You can play tall yet still support a 'wide' empire, depending on how you use your bonuses.
Also agree. Really a shade of tall or wide, this just isn't its own category. I mean, if we had Venn diagrams of tall, wide, and thick, then I see thick as being completely overlapped by the other two.
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Science and 
Culture from completing archaeological digs
Happiness or 
/
(unhappiness from yields calculated normally. 75% reduction in yields and unhappiness applied after normal needs calculations.)
Unit Production.
Unit Supply from Fleet Repair
/
CS to Great Admirals
