[Tuning] Policies: Imperalism

[pineappledan]

Thick is not a thing.

If I have 10-15 strong cities and see the rest of the world in an opportunistic light, I went thick

agree. gonna take it a step further also, "Tall" is not a thing

You can play tall but still support a 'wide' empire

Also agree. Really a shade of tall or wide, this just isn't its own category.

Oh my god. This is a semantics black hole and I am NOT interested in pursuing it. You guys are derailing the thread

What I see as Rationalism's competency: Science, and growth, which allows you to get a technological edge and work lots of specialists (also gives you an extra specialist)

What I see as Industry's competency: Production and gold, which allows you to build lots of units and buildings faster than other people. This is very flexible, but gives few bonuses once you've built everything.

What I see as Imperialism's competency: Getting you lots of land and leveraging that land.

• It has more boosts to tiles than any other tree
• It specifically boosts movement on units, which relieves pressure to have armies all over your territory
• It's the only tree to boost puppets
• It boosts monopolies (which are only attainable if you control a large amount of the requisite tiles)

Wide. Tall. Short. Long. Green. Blue. Can we move on please? I would apologize for having ever accidentally brought it up, but it seems obvious you all have an axe to grind and I just don't care.

 

[tu_79]

What I see as Rationalism's competency: Science, and growth, which allows you to get a technological edge and work lots of specialists (also gives you an extra specialist)

I have an issue with this. After going Tradition and Artistry, there has to be something extremely pressing to not taking Rationalism.

 

[ashendashin]

Oh my god. This is a semantics black hole and I am NOT interested in pursuing it. You guys are derailing the thread

That's what happens when people claim a video game concept doesn't exist

What I see as Industry's competency: Production and gold, which allows you to build lots of infrastructure. This helps a ton with happiness and is very flexible.

What I see as Imperialism's competency: Getting you lots of land and leveraging that land.

You see, both of these mean the same thing with the balance we have. The navy buffs are great for the actual leverage part if your map supports it, such as communitas. If we were to focus purely on things unrelated to Industry, I'd say some stuff from Autocracy would have to be moved, such as vassal buffs. More focus on combat isn't the concern when conquering can drag your positioning down until you have some solid boosts to world standing with Autocracy.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I like the idea of both Artistry and Imperialism both giving Hidden Antiquities. There is sometimes not enough comp for them. Imperialism could give a movement bonus if they get them later.

What i am seeing is that Imperialism just does not have the Eco boost that Authority has to make it a viable option for Warmongering. This is a concern to the other 2 Industrial Policytrees .

Don't Admirals already give Supply from their actions? More would always be welcome.


The Monopoly boost to +x should give triple, % is fine at double.

On Forts and Citadels, would having a Building (say Arsenal) boost their Yields make them want to be worked?

On the free Factory, having a bonus to Engineer Great Person Rate would help their and fit in with the other Policy trees having a Scientist/ Merchant GP% boost.

 

[pineappledan]

Arsenal giving, say, +2 to forts and citadels would make sense, considering castles was recently changed to give +1 to quarries. I think it's quite fitting. I'm ambivalent about the double vs triple on monopolies. I think it's probably nicer, but is it nice enough considering how long that makes the text description?

I really don't like moving hidden sites. It would require an overhaul of artistry, Imperialism would get almost 0 benefit if hidden sites is unlocked twice. The artistry players have 1 1/2 eras to hoover up all the sites.

 

[Gazebo]

V2:

Puppets:

• No longer produce unhappiness, but now only produce 25% of their normal yields.

Imperialism

• Opener: +1 Movement for Naval units, Embarked units, and Great Generals; +1 Sight for Naval and Land melee units. +10% Production towards Military Units, -10% Gold required for Military Unit upgrades.
• Scaler: +5% Production towards Military Units, -5% Gold required for Military Unit upgrades.
• Finisher: Each Air unit stationed in a city increases the City's Defense by 3, and reduces Unhappiness from needs by 3%. Naval units gain the Ironsides Promotion (Units become stronger as they take damage.). Great Admirals generate +2 Luxuries from Voyages of Discovery.
• Martial Law: Puppet City yield penalties reduced by 25%. Constabularies provide +1 Happiness, and garrisons no longer require Gold maintenance.
• Exploitation: Farms, Camps, and Plantations gain +1 Production and +2 Food. All Ocean, Coast, and Lake tiles gain +2 Science and +1 Production. Military Units can be upgraded in territory owned by Vassals and friendly City-States.
• Regimental System: Earn Great Generals and Great Admirals 33% more quickly. Great General and Great Admiral Combat Bonuses are increased by 10%, and their Auras by 1.
• Colonialism: +10% to Yield and Golden Age duration modifiers from Global Monopolies; +4 to Yields and Happiness from Global Monopolies. Barracks, Armories, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels provide +5 Science and +2 Culture.
• Civilizing Mission: Receive a large sum of Gold when you conquer a city. +50% Production towards buildings from previous Eras in Puppeted cities or cities with a Courthouse.

The only new code here is for the Air unit finisher, the previous era production modifier, and the VoD boost. And they're all pretty simple to code in. The air unit change is meant to represent colonial air policing (aerial observation and strategic dissent prevention).

G

 

[Deadstarre]

Puppets: No longer produce unhappiness, but now only produce 25% of their normal yields.


Elliots did propose this, at the same time he proposed giving a new bonus to razing. otherwise razing is basically obsolete.

 

[HungryForFood]

Does the "25% of their normal yields" part include Production? From your wording it seems to be yes, but from what I understand in the puppet thread, ElliotS is advocating that puppets get full Production.

Everything else looks interesting though, will be fun to try out.

 

[pineappledan]

Increase by 10% and 1 tile.

Does that mean that gg and ga effect is now 3 tiles? Sweden is gonna have a field day with their 40% GGs. I had thought to limit the bonus increase to GAs only so as not to stack too much with Sweden

 

[Gazebo]

Puppets: No longer produce unhappiness, but now only produce 25% of their normal yields.


Elliots did propose this, at the same time he proposed giving a new bonus to razing. otherwise razing is basically obsolete.

Elliot's razing proposals were not feasible within the confines of the project as it stands. TBH I don't see an issue with razing as-is, even with these changes, as razing is a punitive means of rapidly building warscore (actually, not sure if it is documented, but razing does in fact increase war score every turn...perhaps I should add that somewhere?)

G

 

[Deadstarre]

Elliot's razing proposals were not feasible within the confines of the project as it stands. TBH I don't see an issue with razing as-is, even with these changes, as razing is a punitive means of rapidly building warscore (actually, not sure if it is documented, but razing does in fact increase war score every turn...perhaps I should add that somewhere?)

G

documentation is good, dont think I knew that. not sure warscore alone makes enough of a difference to create a real option there still.

i wasnt actually advocating his specific proposals, just anything. X gold per pop burned per era makes some kind of sense to me but i have no clue whats possible to code either. Im assuming cities being razed will generate no unhappiness in the new system as well? or the negative diplo modifier is going away? or will razing still carry real, tangible negatives associated with it beyond just 'opportunity cost losses'.

 

[Gazebo]

documentation is good, dont think I knew that. not sure warscore alone makes enough of a difference to create a real option there still.

i wasnt actually advocating his specific proposals, just anything. X gold per pop burned per era makes some kind of sense to me but i have no clue whats possible to code either. Im assuming cities being razed will generate no unhappiness in the new system as well? or the negative diplo modifier is going away? or will razing still carry real, tangible negatives associated with it beyond just 'opportunity cost losses'.

The warscore bump is quite a bit, though if it has gone unnoticed I can increase it to make it more competitive.

G

 

[Stalker0]

V2:

The only new code here is for the Air unit finisher, the previous era production modifier, and the VoD boost. And they're all pretty simple to code in. The air unit change is meant to represent colonial air policing (aerial observation and strategic dissent prevention).

G

G, I think we are getting close.

Puppets: I think the base puppet should have some unhappiness. Else there is no reason to go small, conquer and puppet will always be better as there is 0 downside. I am fine if that unhappiness is lowered by Imperialism as a special trait of that tree.

Opener: Good
Scaler: Good

Martial Law: Good

Exploitation: I thought the previous version was already really good. If you need a little more science, I would bump up colonial system to +6 or +7 science per building.

Regimental System: This one is good, and I like how its the one out on its own leaf. Its a war focused policy, so currently war makers will take it. But someone going more of the economic bonuses and don't need the warring bonus right away might skip it for a while...which is always a nice design in a tree to me.

Colonialism: Good

Civilizing Mission: Good....but going to suggest a different idea, see below.

Finisher: Its clunky. The defense/needs thing for aircraft is just fiddly and weird. Garrisons in Authority makes sense, but with this I'm going to be moving aircraft around for best use, not position them to knock some unhappiness out of a city. Let me recommend a little switch up.


Civilizing Mission (Alternate): Receive a large sum of Gold when you conquer a city. Great Admirals generate +2 luxuries on Vod.

Finisher (Alternate): Ships gain ironsides, Air gets range (or air repair if people really hate range, personally I love it). +50% production towards buildings from previous eras in all cities.

So I'm taking your +50% bonus way up a notch, but I don't think its that out of whack. Your modern cities won't gain any benefit. Your satellite cities and puppets still don't have the best production so they still have to work hard to build all those buildings. Its really sets a strong end to the tree.

 

[Enginseer]

The finisher is insanely good especially when you can fit 10 aircrafts in one city for +30 Defense Strength and -30% Unhappiness Reduction. That's huge! This definitely promotes a much stronger colonial empires as you're encouraged to build aircrafts and station them among your puppet cities to reduce their unhappiness while also monitoring your strength at the border.

 

[Rekk]

The finisher is insanely good especially when you can fit 10 aircrafts in one city for +30 Defense Strength and -30% Unhappiness Reduction. That's huge! This definitely promotes a much stronger colonial empires as you're encouraged to build aircrafts and station them among your puppet cities to reduce their unhappiness while also monitoring your strength at the border.

Puppet cities don't have any unhappiness with this proposal!

 

[ElliotS]

Puppets:

• No longer produce unhappiness, but now only produce 25% of their normal yields.

Imperialism

• Opener: +1 Movement for Naval units, Embarked units, and Great Generals; +1 Sight for Naval and Land melee units. +10% Production towards Military Units, -10% Gold required for Military Unit upgrades.
• Scaler: +5% Production towards Military Units, -5% Gold required for Military Unit upgrades.
• Finisher: Each Air unit stationed in a city increases the City's Defense by 3, and reduces Unhappiness from needs by 3%. Naval units gain the Ironsides Promotion (Units become stronger as they take damage.). Great Admirals generate +2 Luxuries from Voyages of Discovery.
• Martial Law: Puppet City yield penalties reduced by 25%. Constabularies provide +1 Happiness, and garrisons no longer require Gold maintenance.
• Exploitation: Farms, Camps, and Plantations gain +1 Production and +2 Food. All Ocean, Coast, and Lake tiles gain +2 Science and +1 Production. Military Units can be upgraded in territory owned by Vassals and friendly City-States.
• Regimental System: Earn Great Generals and Great Admirals 33% more quickly. Great General and Great Admiral Combat Bonuses are increased by 10%, and their Auras by 1.
• Colonialism: +10% to Yield and Golden Age duration modifiers from Global Monopolies; +4 to Yields and Happiness from Global Monopolies. Barracks, Armories, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels provide +5 Science and +2 Culture.
• Civilizing Mission: Receive a large sum of Gold when you conquer a city. +50% Production towards buildings from previous Eras in Puppeted cities or cities with a Courthouse.

Wow I really like this. A few thoughts:
1- Puppets need to also be incapable of providing happiness. If they have garrisons, stadiums, constabularies and such giving them happiness they'll make wide empires super easy.

2- Civilizing Mission is the most amazing policy! I seriously can't understate how much I like the design there.

3- Sweden and Persia just got very happy with Regimental System and Civilizing Mission respectively. Who says the satrap court is a bad building now?

Finisher: Its clunky. The defense/needs thing for aircraft is just fiddly and weird. Garrisons in Authority makes sense, but with this I'm going to be moving aircraft around for best use, not position them to knock some unhappiness out of a city. Let me recommend a little switch up.

I think that adding peacetime uses to aircraft, and generally more options, is a great idea. I think that this is much more interesting than flat bonuses.

 

[pineappledan]

Looks much better. I'm sad to see no buffs to archaeologists, but oh well.

I like the aircraft idea. It's good utility, and I like adding garrisons from other unit classes. I am not worried about this utility becoming overbearing because the max 10 aircraft in a city is a ton of maintenance

Concern 1:
The ability to build happiness buildings in puppet cities, which contribute 0 unhappiness and sink city needs averages could make happiness trivial to domination civs.
Alternatives:
Puppet cities only affected by poverty and crime
or
Puppet cities contribute 25% of city unhappiness to empire unhappiness

Concern 2:
The aura radius increase to 3 only makes these units more passive because you need to move them less. This also doesn't address the issue with fleet repair not having been given any buff.
Alternative:
change the +1 radius to +2 supply cap on GG or GA expending (total of 4). This improves fleet repair, and keeps GGs/GAs aura use more active.

 

[Gazebo]

Looks much better. I'm sad to see no buffs to archaeologists, but oh well.

I like the aircraft idea. It's good utility, and I like adding garrisons from other unit classes. I am not worried about this utility becoming overbearing because the max 10 aircraft in a city is a ton of maintenance

Concern 1:
The ability to build happiness buildings in puppet cities, which contribute 0 unhappiness and sink city needs averages could make happiness trivial to domination civs.
Alternatives:
Puppet cities only affected by poverty and crime
or
Puppet cities contribute 25% of city unhappiness to empire unhappiness

Concern 2:
The aura radius increase to 3 is not useful, especially with the increased movement on GGs. GGs and GAs have plenty of movement to be able to buff a full advance if they just move perpendicular to your main force. In fact, this bonus makes these units less interactive because you need to move them less. It's only marginally useful if your units are out of position on the enemy's turn. This also doesn't address the issue with fleet repair not having been given any buff.
Alternative:
change the +1 radius to +2 supply cap on GG or GA expending (total of 4). This improves fleet repair, and keeps GGs/GAs aura use more active.

Puppets would become happiness neutral. No unhappy, no happy. Just neutral.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Puppets would become happiness neutral. No unhappy, no happy. Just neutral.

So happiness buildings do not add happiness, and puppet cities are not included in calculations for needs thresholds? That totally addresses my concern then. I feared they could be effectively farmed for happiness.

I think wonders in puppets should still give happiness though, if there is a way to make sure that is unaffected, and that definitely needs to be added to the note:
"No longer produce happiness/unhappiness, but now only produce 25% of their normal yields.

 

[Owlbebach]

I really like the proposal, it goes into right direction