templar_x
usually walks his talks
what does Cyc´s 
in the turn clock thread stand for? Good, BH, you made the sling?
templar_x
in the turn clock thread stand for? Good, BH, you made the sling?templar_x
turns 37-54
- Thread starter I. Larkin
- Start date
Judging from the power graph, they have founded two new towns, just like ourselves. So both must be size 1 and their capital is size 3 => 5 pop versus our 7 pop. That seems to match the F8 value.
Perhaps their first city was not set up in a way that it can share food with the cap?! (They probably have a different tile layout.) And perhaps they have another settler currently on its way to the planned town site?!
Their greetings are very friendly, so I think we can get some kind of cooperation started. Their willingness to offer us military techs will show this. If they are not willing to trade, we know what to prepare for. I will write a draft for our response in our diplomacy forum, please check and comment.
How do you like the following idea: we offer Masonry + Writing for BW + Wheel and then start Republic right away? We have wasted only 18 beakers so far. Not too bad. The benefits of that deal would be:
In general I think, a team that chooses the Greeks as their civ, does not want to do early war mongering. Defensive UU, SCI+COM: that looks like they are playing for long-term peaceful development. We should try and support that.
So as we have contact, I will send the curragh on the quest of new shores! The farther we get before barb galleys appear, the better. Southern scout will go south and then along the east coast, northern scout will go north and find the Greek dwellings.
No idea about Cyc. But in F11 you can see that someone has Philo (or Literature), because we are now #1 with 3% literacy. The others see that they dropped to #2 and know the race is finished... But I don't know, whether you can see, who got the tech?!
Perhaps their first city was not set up in a way that it can share food with the cap?! (They probably have a different tile layout.) And perhaps they have another settler currently on its way to the planned town site?!
Their greetings are very friendly, so I think we can get some kind of cooperation started. Their willingness to offer us military techs will show this. If they are not willing to trade, we know what to prepare for. I will write a draft for our response in our diplomacy forum, please check and comment.
How do you like the following idea: we offer Masonry + Writing for BW + Wheel and then start Republic right away? We have wasted only 18 beakers so far. Not too bad. The benefits of that deal would be:
- Rep at the earliest possible moment
- It is a very "generous" offer, so a) they will see that we are willing to cooperate and b) it might earn their friendship.
- It gives us some military techs in case they do get funny ideas.
In general I think, a team that chooses the Greeks as their civ, does not want to do early war mongering. Defensive UU, SCI+COM: that looks like they are playing for long-term peaceful development. We should try and support that.
So as we have contact, I will send the curragh on the quest of new shores! The farther we get before barb galleys appear, the better. Southern scout will go south and then along the east coast, northern scout will go north and find the Greek dwellings.
No idea about Cyc. But in F11 you can see that someone has Philo (or Literature), because we are now #1 with 3% literacy. The others see that they dropped to #2 and know the race is finished... But I don't know, whether you can see, who got the tech?!
templar_x
usually walks his talks
I agree with mostly everything you said, Brother Lanzelot.
They could plan for early, but not for ultra early warring.
If we should be able to out-produce, out-research, out-everything them, we should foster them and keep good relationship, if we want to build up. And our lands are good, so why not go that way?
The deal you propose is a very good one for them indeed. It may be good tactics... otoh, why give them so much if BW only takes us 3 more turns. We are very far ahead in the moment due to our free tech.
I would rather build up that relationship and find out a bit more before such a big decision. It may be that we meet someone else. It is very unlikely that they do. So we could get into an even stronger position.
I´d try to trade for TW only, as Memento proposed.
templar_x
They could plan for early, but not for ultra early warring.
If we should be able to out-produce, out-research, out-everything them, we should foster them and keep good relationship, if we want to build up. And our lands are good, so why not go that way?
The deal you propose is a very good one for them indeed. It may be good tactics... otoh, why give them so much if BW only takes us 3 more turns. We are very far ahead in the moment due to our free tech.
I would rather build up that relationship and find out a bit more before such a big decision. It may be that we meet someone else. It is very unlikely that they do. So we could get into an even stronger position.
I´d try to trade for TW only, as Memento proposed.
templar_x
Well, yes, Masonry for Wheel would be the other option, if all of you think that 125g would be too generous...
Edit: let's assume that we finish Bronze around the same time as they finish Iron. That would mean, that we are 450 beakers ahead of them!! (Wheel + Iron = 250; Masonry + Writing + Philo + CoL = 700). Can that be possible? Even if we substract the 250 for CoL, and 25 for our more expensive starting techs, it means we had already appr. 175g more income than them. (Or they have one more tech like e.g. WC.)
Offering such a "big bang" deal might be interpreted by them in two ways:
a) the intended one, namely a generous start of a good cooperation
b) we have gone on the Writing->Philo path and are now afraid of them as we have no defense against their soon to be expected swordsmen.
Of course we should avoid giving them the impression of b)
Edit: let's assume that we finish Bronze around the same time as they finish Iron. That would mean, that we are 450 beakers ahead of them!! (Wheel + Iron = 250; Masonry + Writing + Philo + CoL = 700). Can that be possible? Even if we substract the 250 for CoL, and 25 for our more expensive starting techs, it means we had already appr. 175g more income than them. (Or they have one more tech like e.g. WC.)
Offering such a "big bang" deal might be interpreted by them in two ways:
a) the intended one, namely a generous start of a good cooperation
b) we have gone on the Writing->Philo path and are now afraid of them as we have no defense against their soon to be expected swordsmen.
Of course we should avoid giving them the impression of b)
Memento
The World is mine
Masonry+Writing for TW and a Tech that we research in 3 turns???
No.
If we give them now Writing, what will u give them for IW?
Memento
The World is mine
I think they have WC too.
Someone said, now that we met our neighbor, we no longer need a second curragh. I disagree. Having a good view of the map (and especially, knowing where our neighbor is located, in case they are hostile) is important. And the earlier we get the second curragh, the better its chances to sail once around our continent.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
i second that - when else would we want to build another curragh and get the best maps and thus intelligence in the world?
and even it is cheaper than exploration with warriors, which we need at home for mp. the next curragh should explore our continent counter-clockwise, giving us the info about our south and east and the lands of the Anarchos.
templar_x
and even it is cheaper than exploration with warriors, which we need at home for mp. the next curragh should explore our continent counter-clockwise, giving us the info about our south and east and the lands of the Anarchos.
templar_x
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Sounds like a good plan, if they will trade. If they won't, destroy them.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
Is "destroy them" really an option to consider that early? I do not see that. Did that ever work in one of your games against human opponents?
You know, that I never played such a game before. But from what I read, some points seem to strongly speak against early military action:
+ as the aggressor, everyone will hate you
+ trades will be much more difficult or become impossible because nobody wants to strengthen you
+ so you basically have to fight all alone from then on. you should be strong enough before you become the aggressor, and we are no nearly strong enough.
+ with two continents, having the other home civ as a trading partner gives more security that they won´t backstab you early, right?
+ we have a good chance in this game to be the first to meet everyone. this brings us in a strong position for tech trading and diplomacy. wouldn´t logic tell that we try to have that situation last peacefully, at least from our side, for as long as possible.
+ one other major point I think Lanzelot once raised is that one civ would not be able to compete with the remaining two (only consider corruption!), even if we were able to take over our whole continent. and the one thought I added to this, we do not have the food surplus by a whole lot that would be necessary to fill the whole continent quickly and thus gain sth from the lands.
+ Anarchie being Greece is another factor. they may not have any yet, but they can always build hoplites! fighting against them would cost enormous ressources, and honestly I do not see any chance to even win a war against them before, let´s say, at least MIs.
+ actually, all these thoughts even bring me to the point where I believe that we should foster the Anarchie, if they really appear as far behind as it seems. we do not win anything by having a useless home civ. what would be their options from their point of view then? - i´d say, an alliance with the other continent against us! much better to convince them to be in a partnership with us, plus use all the possibilities if we can set up a broker position.
if I am mislead, or simply lack the experience to see how these games really work, please offer me your arguments for another view.
could I myself already see a situation where war might be considered earlier? well, yes, if the other continent should fight, this could be a good situation to start a war on our continent as well.
one last thought:
let´s assume that is the easy passage over to the other continent. should we try to build a curragh barrier so no one else could use it withouth the risk of sinking? are there any other seafaring tribes? (which would make it impossible for them)
templar_x
You know, that I never played such a game before. But from what I read, some points seem to strongly speak against early military action:
+ as the aggressor, everyone will hate you
+ trades will be much more difficult or become impossible because nobody wants to strengthen you
+ so you basically have to fight all alone from then on. you should be strong enough before you become the aggressor, and we are no nearly strong enough.
+ with two continents, having the other home civ as a trading partner gives more security that they won´t backstab you early, right?
+ we have a good chance in this game to be the first to meet everyone. this brings us in a strong position for tech trading and diplomacy. wouldn´t logic tell that we try to have that situation last peacefully, at least from our side, for as long as possible.
+ one other major point I think Lanzelot once raised is that one civ would not be able to compete with the remaining two (only consider corruption!), even if we were able to take over our whole continent. and the one thought I added to this, we do not have the food surplus by a whole lot that would be necessary to fill the whole continent quickly and thus gain sth from the lands.
+ Anarchie being Greece is another factor. they may not have any yet, but they can always build hoplites! fighting against them would cost enormous ressources, and honestly I do not see any chance to even win a war against them before, let´s say, at least MIs.
+ actually, all these thoughts even bring me to the point where I believe that we should foster the Anarchie, if they really appear as far behind as it seems. we do not win anything by having a useless home civ. what would be their options from their point of view then? - i´d say, an alliance with the other continent against us! much better to convince them to be in a partnership with us, plus use all the possibilities if we can set up a broker position.
if I am mislead, or simply lack the experience to see how these games really work, please offer me your arguments for another view.
could I myself already see a situation where war might be considered earlier? well, yes, if the other continent should fight, this could be a good situation to start a war on our continent as well.
one last thought:
let´s assume that is the easy passage over to the other continent. should we try to build a curragh barrier so no one else could use it withouth the risk of sinking? are there any other seafaring tribes? (which would make it impossible for them)
templar_x
I agree with you, templar. Early war is
a) not possible, because we would need at least Cavalry for a successful campaign against Hoplites... (E.g. assume you want to attack with swords. You would probably need 3 swords to take out a Hoplite fortified in a town! That's 90 shields vs 20 shields! (The land is supposed to be approx. equal, so I don't see us getting a production of 4 to 1, which would be necessary here...) Plus the fact that defending is easier than attacking: During the time it takes to march to their lands, they can finish internal road connections, build further units, etc)
b) not even desirable, because a strong partner is better than dozens of corrupted towns that gain you nothing but the scorn of the remaining teams...
In most PBEMs that I remember, the early aggressor ended up at the wrong end of a dog-pile... Cooperation and peaceful development gives you much more benefits. (And in my heart I'm basically a pacifist...
) And if they don't cooperate, we just take the war-happiness and otherwise more or less ignore them, while trying to get a cooperation going with the other continent.
But I think they will cooperate. They will also realize what I wrote above, namely that an early war against Numideans will be fruitless, and that cooperation is the way to go, if you don't want to be left behind.
Edit: I'm not sure, whether a sea-blockade is allowed by the rules, but it would in any case not make friends with any of the other three, if we employed such tactics...
a) not possible, because we would need at least Cavalry for a successful campaign against Hoplites... (E.g. assume you want to attack with swords. You would probably need 3 swords to take out a Hoplite fortified in a town! That's 90 shields vs 20 shields! (The land is supposed to be approx. equal, so I don't see us getting a production of 4 to 1, which would be necessary here...) Plus the fact that defending is easier than attacking: During the time it takes to march to their lands, they can finish internal road connections, build further units, etc)
b) not even desirable, because a strong partner is better than dozens of corrupted towns that gain you nothing but the scorn of the remaining teams...
In most PBEMs that I remember, the early aggressor ended up at the wrong end of a dog-pile... Cooperation and peaceful development gives you much more benefits. (And in my heart I'm basically a pacifist...
) And if they don't cooperate, we just take the war-happiness and otherwise more or less ignore them, while trying to get a cooperation going with the other continent.But I think they will cooperate. They will also realize what I wrote above, namely that an early war against Numideans will be fruitless, and that cooperation is the way to go, if you don't want to be left behind.
Edit: I'm not sure, whether a sea-blockade is allowed by the rules, but it would in any case not make friends with any of the other three, if we employed such tactics...
templar_x
usually walks his talks
re the other continent:
can we safely assume that the long gap for that last handover means that the civs there have met, too?
templar_x
can we safely assume that the long gap for that last handover means that the civs there have met, too?
templar_x
Most probably the others have met as well, if they have the same distance and sent out warriors around the same time as we did.
Templar, I don't understand your ss: Tintagel is working the rrm BG this turn, not r grass, so it is making 3 shields instead of 1, and the curragh should be ready in T41, not 43?!
Templar, I don't understand your ss: Tintagel is working the rrm BG this turn, not r grass, so it is making 3 shields instead of 1, and the curragh should be ready in T41, not 43?!
templar_x
usually walks his talks
you are right, Lanzelot. as i said, i copied these figures from Ivan´s ss without double-checking the numbers. i hoped i´d find the time to do so this weekend, but it does not look like it.
only the commerce i think i did myself.
i corrected this one thing now. watch out for other nonsense i put into it.
templar_x
only the commerce i think i did myself.
i corrected this one thing now. watch out for other nonsense i put into it.
templar_x
Here the latest exploration. I think it's a little jungle island, and it probably does not matter that much, whether we go around south or north. I tend towards south.
In the south, I would like to let our warrior do all the scouting. Then we don't need to send our curragh there, and can instead right way sail around north. So warrior 1W on the hill next turn? (Didn't make a screenshot of the south, not much new that can be seen, only the mountain and the hill that were visible in the fog last time.
In the south, I would like to let our warrior do all the scouting. Then we don't need to send our curragh there, and can instead right way sail around north. So warrior 1W on the hill next turn? (Didn't make a screenshot of the south, not much new that can be seen, only the mountain and the hill that were visible in the fog last time.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
If we consider to send the Next curragh North also, i would like to Move the Eastern exploring warrior w-s-s-then along the Coast eastwards again. This would Show the Tiles for the Next town and the possible Southern Channel town also. That is more important than a few earlier explored Tiles Beyond the Great lakes in my Eyes.
How do you See that Island is Small?
Do we have horses?
I find it very positive that the Anarchos Made that Trade. Maybe then Plan for the fp earlier?
Templar_x
How do you See that Island is Small?
Do we have horses?
I find it very positive that the Anarchos Made that Trade. Maybe then Plan for the fp earlier?
Templar_x
Memento
The World is mine
ohh, the answer from greece come 10 min to late.
some gold more.
some gold more.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
what do you mean, Memento?
Memento
The World is mine
lanzelot give the save to the eagles 13 min before greece answer
Similar threads
