Two-speed EU?

[Cato the Elder]

Fine, but the Ottoman Empire, the predecessor of modern Turkey, did have a big influence in Europe and to be frank, they were somewhere halfway between a European, Middle Eastern, and Central Asian nation, that being the territory they encompassed. However, today Turkey is growing progessively more European. Everyone I know who's been to Turkey, particularily to the big cities like Istanbul, Ankara, and Izmir, have told me that the most surprising thing was that there were barely any differences between those cities and Brussels, Munich or Zaragoza.

So long as Turkey fullfills the criteria for EU membership and the Cyprus question is solved fairly and balanced, I don't see why they can't join us.

edit: Both have a lot in common with old Semitic monotheistic religions (see Judaism, Zoroastrianism), have many of the same prophets, and hell, the Bible and the Koran use different stories, but it comes down to the same thing. Imo the difference between Christianity and Islam is like the difference between old Germanic and old Norse mythology. Visible, but not so noticeable at its core.

 

[Shekwan]

European heritage in present day Turkey isn't turkish at all. Don't tell me that the Hagia Sophia represents turkish culture.

Well thats why I said it was originally a Cathedral. But in all fairness it's been the major mosque in Turkey for what, over 600 years now? Got to say that makes it a part of Turkey's history...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Godwin was well deserved in this case, I don't make Nazi references often but you were starting to sound a bit too scary. Muslims, gypsies and Russians not allowed?

First off, why are Ukrainians Europeans while Russians aren't? Many Ukrainians identify themselves with Russians, as much as they do with Poles or Belorussians. There is no inherent cultural difference that makes it impossible to let Russia join. Granted, the political climate isn't suitable at all at this moment but that's not saying that could change and Russia could be a regular, working member of the EU.

Besides, you'd be surprised how much opposition there was to Poland and the like joining here in Belgium. Trust me, until 2004, you guys didn't have a very good reputation. Everyone thought you were thieves and came to steal our jobs. A terrible argument, imo, because in the end Poles are just people like the rest of us.

You just opened up a whole new thing....

There is no inherent cultural difference that makes it impossible to let Russia join.

Poles = Western Slavs
Russians = Eastern Slavs
First of all, we are genetically and linguistically different. They Even have a different Alphabet!!!

Now for Religion, We are Catholic, They are Orthadox.

Now for Region, Poland = Central Europe, which includes Germany, Austria, Czech Republic,(sometimes Switzerland) Etc.

Now for Culture, Poland has a European Culture, Russia has a Russian Culture. Poland Culturally is MUCH MUCH closer to Portugal or Ireland then to Russia. Heck, we might even be closer culturally to the turks(excluding religion obviously) then to the russians. I think the only thing similar in Polish culture and Russian culture is food and liquor. (and even then, our vodka is different then theres)

Besides, you'd be surprised how much opposition there was to Poland and the like joining here in Belgium. Trust me, until 2004, you guys didn't have a very good reputation. Everyone thought you were thieves and came to steal our jobs. A terrible argument, imo, because in the end Poles are just people like the rest of us.

Isn't that the first impression of all immigrants?

 

[Pannonius]

Well thats why I said it was originally a Cathedral. But in all fairness it's been the major mosque in Turkey for what, over 600 years now? Got to say that makes it a part of Turkey's history...

It's been a mosque because of the turkish genocide and culturocide against the Greeks who built it.

 

[holy king]

It's been a mosque because of the turkish genocide and culturocide against the Greeks who built it.

as the christians did to pagan temples. that's the course of history, live with it...

 

[Gelion]

TheLastOne, just to clarify, I'd like to ask if you have had first had experience with Russians as business partners, friends or closer relations.

 

[Pannonius]

as the christians did to pagan temples. that's the course of history, live with it...

Absolutely, but my post was about Hagia Sophia. It represents greek, not turkish culture. Turks used the building, but it's not the product of their culture.

 

[TheLastOne36]

TheLastOne, just to clarify, I'd like to ask if you have had first had experience with Russians as business partners, friends or closer relations.

Of course i do, my Sisters boyfriend is Russian, and i have a couple russian friends in Toronto. I have nothing against Russians (just to clear that up) I'm just saying that our cultures are very different.

 

[Gelion]

Of course i do, my Sisters boyfriend is Russian, and i have a couple russian friends in Toronto. I have nothing against Russians (just to clear that up) I'm just saying that our cultures are very different.

The reason I asked is because my first hand experience suggest that we have a lot more in common than say with the French or the Portuguese. Obviously this is subject to point if view.

 

[TheLastOne36]

The reason I asked is because my first hand experience suggest that we have a lot more in common than say with the French or the Portuguese. Obviously this is subject to point if view.

Funny, To us it seems like we have more in common with the French or Portuguese then with you. (for example, our architecture is much more similar to French or German Architecture then to Russian)

 

[Gelion]

Funny, To us it seems like we have more in common with the French or Portuguese then with you. (for example, our architecture is much more similar to French or German Architecture then to Russian)

I am talking more about mentality. For example it is still common in our cultures to pay for the ladies or to open doors for them unlike with Germans or French (discrimination!!! most of them will scream)

 

[TheLastOne36]

I am talking more about mentality. For example it is still common in our cultures to pay for the ladies or to open doors for them unlike with Germans or French (discrimination!!! most of them will scream)

isn't that called politeness? iirc people around the globe can be polite.

 

[lovett]

Well thats why I said it was originally a Cathedral. But in all fairness it's been the major mosque in Turkey for what, over 600 years now? Got to say that makes it a part of Turkey's history...

I concur. Clearly, if it was a 'Byzantine' cathedral (Is Byzantine really European anyway?) for about a millenia and then became Istanbuls' principle mosque, and a model for several more impressive ones, that just supports you original point. That Istanbul is deeply rooted in European culture.

And P.S it's no longer a mosque. It's now a museum

 

[Pannonius]

I concur. Clearly, if it was a 'Byzantine' cathedral (Is Byzantine really European anyway?) for about a millenia and then became Istanbuls' principle mosque, and a model for several more impressive ones, that just supports you original point. That Istanbul is deeply rooted in European culture.

And P.S it's no longer a mosque. It's now a museum

That only proves that the Turks occupied Constantinople, not that Hagia Sophia is part of their culture.
P.S. And who the hell are "Byzantines"?

 

[Gelion]

isn't that called politeness? iirc people around the globe can be polite.

No, its cultural similarity.

 

[TheLastOne36]

No, its cultural similarity.

So the entire world has a similar culture? good to know.

Out of curiosity do you have the tradition of always bringing flowers to the women of the house whenever your invited over like we do?

 

[bhsup]

P.S. And who the hell are "Byzantines"?

You don't even know who built the Hagia Sophia and you're claiming to know whose culture it belongs to?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_empire

 

[Pannonius]

You don't even know who built the Hagia Sophia and you're claiming to know whose culture it belongs to?!

You don't even know why do I ask this question?

 

[Eniotna]

No, its cultural similarity.

No, it's not. We do that in Western Europe too.

 

[lovett]

That only proves that the Turks occupied Constantinople, not that Hagia Sophia is part of their culture.
P.S. And who the hell are "Byzantines"?

The People who Built the Cathedral. Incidentally, I do hope that you just wern't aware that the Eastern Roman Empire is often called that, otherwise i've lost a certain faith in this forum

As for the cultural thing, I think your missing the point entirely. Sure, Constantinople was captured by the Ottoman empire. But then it became the seat of their goverment. And architecturally, the Hagia Sophia was a model for the Blue Mosque, the Sezhade Mosque, the Rustem Pasha Mosque and a score of others. The point being that the Hagia Sophia didn't have to be a product of Ottoman culture to be part of it. Clearly, the most impressive architectural achievments of Istanbul are derived from it. Does this mean their not part of Istanbuls culture and/or architecture?