Two-speed EU?

[Pannonius]

The People who Built the Cathedral. Incidentally, I do hope that you just wern't aware that the Eastern Roman Empire is often called that, otherwise i've lost a certain faith in this forum

As for the cultural thing, I think your missing the point entirely. Sure, Constantinople was captured by the Ottoman empire. But then it became the seat of their goverment. And architecturally, the Hagia Sophia was a model for the Blue Mosque, the Sezhade Mosque, the Rustem Pasha Mosque and a score of others. The point being that the Hagia Sophia didn't have to be a product of Ottoman culture to be part of it. Clearly, the most impressive architectural achievments of Istanbul are derived from it. Does this mean their not part of Istanbuls culture and/or architecture?

So the Turks just stole and imitated someone else's culture?
BTW. I'm perfectly aware that some people have the tendency to call eastern Roman Empire "Byzantine Empire". I just think that this nomenclature is complete nonsense.

 

[Gelion]

So the entire world has a similar culture? good to know.

http://www.topics-mag.com/edition23/manners/traditional-changing.htm

Out of curiosity do you have the tradition of always bringing flowers to the women of the house whenever your invited over like we do?

It is considered a good manners, as well as it is bad manners not to bring anything to (someones) place where you're invited.

 

[Gelion]

No, it's not. We do that in Western Europe too.

So Russians are Europeans are culturally similar in that respect, non?

 

[lovett]

So the Turks just stole and imitated someone else's culture?

Yes. Like everybody does. Like the British did after Hastings. Like Western Europe did after the conquest of Gaul. Like Spain during the Reconquista. Like Russia did under Peter the Great. It really shouldn't surprise you that much. Especially considering that it was Roman culture the Ottomans were adopting. Roman culture has had quite a good record over the last 2000 years or so.

BTW. I'm perfectly aware that some people have the tendency to call eastern Roman Empire "Byzantine Empire". I just think that this nomenclature is complete nonsense.

Well, I guess that's an issue you'll have to deal with on your own. Since far more people call it the 'Byzantine Empire' then call it the 'Eastern Roman Empire'.

 

[Eniotna]

So Russians are Europeans are culturally similar in that respect, non?

Well yes. (I thought you said it was something only Poles and Russians had in common)

 

[Gelion]

Well yes. (I thought you said it was something only Poles and Russians had in common)

I said, it is something I see more often in Slavic countries (Russia and Poland included) than in Western ones.

 

[ArneHD]

Had Russia ended at the Urals, I am sure that Winner would have welcomed it into the EU with open arms.

 

[Gelion]

Had Russia ended at the Urals, I am sure that Winner would have welcomed it into the EU with open arms.

I doubt that. We'd still be evil imperialists. He stresses it is a culture question, not so much a geographic one.

IMHO Russia could only be an associated member or even part of the EU only after EU becomes a closer union and breaks its military ties to US (which is unlikely to happen at all).

 

[Cato the Elder]

History is unpredictable. I would be extremely surprised if Russia were to join the EU in the next two or three decades but political climates change, dominant schools of thought change, and anything could happen. I sincerely hope that both the Russians and the EU warm up to a potential Russian membership because to be frank a United Europe wouldn't be complete without you guys.

 

[kronic]

Only if you see the purpose of the EU in uniting all of Europe (let's brush aside the discussion how to define Europe). I don't agree with that view.

 

[REDY]

I would like to see Russia in EU...but I dont think that I would be alive in moment when it will come. Russia had totally different development.
Turkey is not european. But I support come of some non-european nations if they will be prepared. The biggest problem is their largeness...when will come Azerbaijdzan, Israel or Tunis it should be ok, but when will come countries like Morocco or Turkey?
But all my support is only for confederation of nations, not federation or state. Best would be if EU will use only economical advantages and some cooperation like police one...and forbid tommyrots as its intitutions. But that all about experiences, EU needs some real problem to see that they way, which have they chosen, is bad.

 

[Mirc]

I would like to see Russia in EU...but I dont think that I would be alive in moment when it will come. Russia had totally different development.
Turkey is not european.

I agree with this part of your post 100%!

 

[Shekwan]

Whats a ''tommyrot''?

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread (it's the European Football Championships on the tele and right now the Czechs are up by one against Turkey late in second half) but the word stupid was mentioned early;

IMO what's stupid is having these "yes or no" referendums because it seems to me that people in general are against change, change of any kind, and if they had the chance also would vote no to fire, the wheel, deodorant and other unquestionable benefits to mankind. A more understandable reason to vote no, of course, is to stick it to the man but it's not a very progressive way to do so. It doesn't benefit anyone.

If a referendum is to be had it should be about two (or more) alternative ways to move forward and not just one suggestion and the possibility to shut your eyes, cover your ears and shout no, no, no.

I'm not all in favor of everything the EU does but I do believe we need a stronger European Union and the way to get it, I think, is to have a more visible parliament where issues are not already settled on national level but actually under debate. The "European foreign minister" wich has been suggested is IMO another good way to break the traditional national thinking that does not favor anybody in the long term when it comes to dealing with Russia, USA, China and others.

Let's work together as one in politics. We can always continue to bash each other nationwise on the football field. Game's over for the Czechs by the way. Turkey to quarterfinals with 3-2 after a late game comeback. Congrat's to Turkey...

 

[DNK]

I get the feeling most people would vote for fire, etc, considering how quick they are to adopt the newest technologies and creature comforts of modernity. That's a hell of a statement there.

You're making a rather nice strawman out of what could be quite valid reasons for not wanting one's national sovereignty superseded by that of a less representative continental government whose proponents not only despised them, but apparently made their laws and treaties thick and difficult to read on purpose, or at least bragged about it afterward.

Not to put words in the mouths of those against the new treaty, but at the very least, there's a non-straw reason to "resist change". It's nice to know Europeans are capable of the same rhetorical bullsh-- phrases that American politicians use, though. What was that about cultural similarities?



All this talk about a "stronger Europe". What's the point of going beyond the economic scope? This sounds like just another form of (super-)nationalist fervor.

 

[Shekwan]

Turkey beat Czechs in Euro 2008... goddamn non-european teams infiltrating our tournament !

 

[Winner]

Yes, it is a modified flag of he Soviet navy (in case you didn't notice it is also a mockery). You have a problem with that?
But you're right, its better tokeep silent when you can't explain your motives....

I explained them, I just say I don't have to, because I am not doing anything wrong. At least I don't have a symbol of a totalitarian power which killed tens of millions of people in my avatar

Read the post before you comment. Taiwan is not in Europe, Turkey is.

Yeah? How so?

Culturally? Not, culturally it's a part of the Middle East.
Geographically? Hardly, 95% of it lies in Asia, except the city the took from the Byzantines.
Politically? Nah, their "democracy" is very different from ours, and they don't exactly have a tradition of European-style democracy.
Economically? It's much poorer that then the poorest of Central European power. Except Constantinople and the big ex-Greek cities on the Western coast, it looks more like Iran than Europe.

So again, why should be Turkey considered European? There is no reason for that.

Turkey is both in Europe and democratic. Turkey has its equal share of european culture. Look at Istanbul, its roots are based deeply in european culture. The Hagia Sophia was originally a Cathedral don't forget, and all the other Roman/Byzantine/Greek heritage thats in Turkey. The ottomons were as much a part of european politics and intrigue for as any other european empire.

A part?

What did you do during your history lessons, play cards? Ottomans were always the conquerors, something alien in Europe. It's true that Europeans often exploited it for their own gains, but they NEVER treated it as equal of the European (Christian) countries. Ask people from Balkans what they think about the Ottoman empire and its "achievments".

Look at Turkey today, the only muslim country with a proper democracy, is it a fluke, or the european factor? You may have more in common with turkish people than you think.

Like what? They're ethnically, culturally and religiously different. I have much more in common with the Italians than Turks. Heck, even with the Russians.

The only thing left to argue is the Muslim thing, something which gives me the impression, along with the armband thing, of Nazism.

I'm not by a lng shot calling you a Nazi though! It take far more than a tongue in cheek avatar and the opinion that the EU should be ''culturally homogenous'' to be a Nazi...

But surely you can see where people are getting the impression?

This discussion is off-topic here and it's over.

Winner, please, I know well enough that Poland isn't the only country in Central Europe. It's just that, there weren't any articles on how the "Czech Plumber" or "Slovenian Plumber" was going to take over all our jobs. (eventually, the Polish plumber didn't either, which is why the issue is now carefully ignored by all former anti-Polish EU membership activists)

Guess why. Poland is the main source of economic migrants. Countries like Czechia or Slovenia or Estonia are relatively rich, so the people don't need to seek jobs elsewhere to get paid. Actually, Czechs are now returning back home because it's no longer profitable to work in Britain and the Eurozone (our currency is getting stronger, so their earnings are worth less). We have one of the lowest unemployment in Europe and one of the fastest growing economies. The times when the Western Europeans could look down to Central Europe are long gone.

And about Turkey, I wholly agree with Shekwan there. And really, the whole entire only Christian bit is still a bit strange. Islam and Christianity are pretty much the same religion anyway

Sure, water and oil are both liquids, so they must be the same! Sorry, but that's totally not true.

and so long as we don't have any theocracies joining us (sorry Vatican City, better luck next time) I really don't see the problem. After all there are tonnes of Muslims in Bosnia & Albania as well, why not deny them membership as well then?

Bosnia is not a member and it won't be for a long time. The same applies to Albania. But there is difference. These coutries were Islamized fairly recently by the Ottomans, they have retained their Europen culture, or parts of it. Turkey has never been European. It's a country founded by Central Asian nomadic invaders on the ruins of the Byzantine Empire.

People are fooled simply because the Turks decided to Westernize after their empire dissolved. They adopted Western institutions, western law, Latin characters, western fashion etc. Unfortunately, that does not make you European. They're still a Middle Eastern country, they have culturally more in common with Azerbaidzan than with, say, Hungary, which was founded by nomadic invaders too, but it had one millenium to assimilate into the Western civilization.

Back on topic:

EU is facing a deadlock even without culturally different countries as members. Our problem is nationalism, belief that nation states can't give up on their sovereignty. Now, have you ever read something about the turkish nationalism? It's like French nationalism multiplied by 10. Their population is big, it's not going to give up. With Turkey in the EU, any move towards a political union would be doomed from the beginning.

Turkey beat Czechs in Euro 2008... goddamn non-european teams infiltrating our tournament !

Our team fully deserved that. I've never seen such a collapse in such a short time

 

[Winner]

Had Russia ended at the Urals, I am sure that Winner would have welcomed it into the EU with open arms.

It's not about geography. If it was, I'd not want Cyprus in.

It's all about culture, because culture defines everything - political development, mentality etc.

Russia has had a history which has made it half-European. Essentially, after the Mongol invasion, Russia has been separated from Europe for centuries and during that period, the Russian culture gradually "orientalized". Mongols teached them brutality and despotism. When Muscowy eventually drived them out, the "liberal" culture of Novgorod and Kievan Rus was long gone. Here begins the Russian tradition of absolute rulers, ruthless and despotic.

Russian later history is essentially a history of Westernization. Tsar after tsar tried to adopt European technology and European culture to make Russia more powerful, but they never adopted the other European ideas - such as that all people should be equal in their rights and that all people have some basic rights. In Russia, the European humanism and enlightement never had any significant impact until the late 19th century. And when things finally begun to move in the right direction, Bolsheviks took power and crushed everything good that was just about to start.

Today, Russia is doing the same thing all over again - they adopted Western institutions, technology and methods (capitalism, "democracy", internet etc.), but again without Western things like the rule of law, equal rights and rulers truly answerable to the people.

I doubt that. We'd still be evil imperialists. He stresses it is a culture question, not so much a geographic one.

IMHO Russia could only be an associated member or even part of the EU only after EU becomes a closer union and breaks its military ties to US (which is unlikely to happen at all).

It'd be better if Russia finally realized that the Western world is not an enemy. Your paranoia harms you more than anything else.

 

[Cato the Elder]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that you first lament excessively about how due to Mongol invasions and whatnot the Russians are inherently ruthless dictators and is pretending to be Westernising but secretly has other plans, yet at the same time accuse the Russians of being paranoid?

Actually, I don't understand the whole entire "they're fooling us" vibe through your entire post. Turkey and Russia are adopting Western institutions, although Russia isn't quite following through with them atm but I've told you that I don't expect them to join in at least the next 30 years, maybe longer, and both have territory geographically in Europe. Europe is immensly diverse anyway, and if you take a look at a modern Greek and Turk or a modern Ukrainian and Russian you'll notice that the differences aren't too immense. Just because Turkey has only been in Europe 500 years while Hungary has been in 1000 we should deny them membership? What kind of bollocks is that?

There's just one major question I have to ask you: why can't a country be Islamic and European? Take for example, Morocco and Indonesia. Both Islamic countries, yet can you say their culture is similar at all? They share the same religion, yet the former is Maghreb while the latter is South-East Asian. Why, then, can a country not be Islamic and European?

Oh, and remember, even though Bosnia and Albania became majority Muslim rather recently, it doesn't change anything, they're still Muslim. And if you're going to be so bigoted to deny EU membership based on religion, you ought to do it to them too.

 

[Pannonius]

Another thing about Bosnia: it's a completedly rotten state. No one there wants to live with anyone else.