UKIP go from strength to strength

[Traitorfish]

Does UKIP have any clear policies apart from the removal of the UK from Europe, and a rather vague antipathy towards immigrants, or thinly veiled racism (to be blunt)?

Its general intention is to represent "British", or rather "English", people of hazy definition. Probably "white". Their actual appeal could be said to be the representation of ethnic interests.

But again, white English people aren't exactly lacking in representation in the Conservative Party. The problem is perhaps that the Conservatives also occasionally makes a half-hearted effort to represent people that aren't white and English, which to a lot of right-wing Tories is little better than spitting on Churchill's corpse.

Farage is a bit of demagogue, isn't he? I'd have said the middle-classes are the least likely to vote for him. Though you may be right that older people could.

Depends which middle class, doesn't it? A London barrister, probably not, but a Buckinghamshire shopkeeper, that wouldn't be so unexpected. It's a middle class party, but it's a party of the disaffected middle class: petty bourgeois and provincial bourgeois, anti-establishment on a national level but firmly pro-establishment on a local level. Millionaires against billionaires, sort of thing, like the Tea Party over in the US.

 

[Tahuti]

Depends which middle class, doesn't it? A London barrister, probably not, but a Buckinghamshire shopkeeper, that wouldn't be so unexpected. It's a middle class party, but it's a party of the disaffected middle class: petty bourgeois and provincial bourgeois, anti-establishment on a national level but firmly pro-establishment on a local level. Millionaires against billionaires, sort of thing, like the Tea Party over in the US.

The UKIP arguably has a more upper-class electorate than, say the PVV, whose electorate is completely identical to the Far-Left SP, save that the PVV still has some (tiny) Middle Class support and SP has support from academia, being a left-wing party, though in both cases, the electoral result is negligible.

Originally, the PVV was quite Libertarian on economics, but then moved to the left of all Left-Wing parties (save SP) on economics and combined it with welfare chauvinism. However, if I am not mistaken, the Left-Wing (Strasserite? ) elements of the UKIP left and formed New Deal.

 

[Flying Pig]

The upper classes in Britain, for all intents and purposes, no longer exist as a meaningful entity.

 

[Tahuti]

I spoke in a relative sense, i.e. upper middle classes. The PVV has a more working-class image than the UKIP, though both parties were quite similar. PVV was originally more like the UKIP (though with official Islamophobia), though it has become more similar to the Social Democratic parties as they were in the 1960s, who were committed to welfarism but also hostile to guest workers programmes on these grounds.

The closest historical counterpart to the PVV is probably the DNVP: The left associates them with the upper class even though the primary support came from the working classes and the upper classes in fact supported other parties, they avoid being called Fascists yet have no quarrels working with such and more or less filled the void between Conservatives that operated within a liberal democratic framework and outright Fascists. UKIP is still fairly moderate compared to the Dutch PVV despite the similar roles they play in their respective countries' politics.

 

[Traitorfish]

The UKIP arguably has a more upper-class electorate than, say the PVV, whose electorate is completely identical to the Far-Left SP, save that the PVV still has some (tiny) Middle Class support and SP has support from academia, being a left-wing party, though in both cases, the electoral result is negligible.

Originally, the PVV was quite Libertarian on economics, but then moved to the left of all Left-Wing parties (save SP) on economics and combined it with welfare chauvinism. However, if I am not mistaken, the Left-Wing (Strasserite? ) elements of the UKIP left and formed New Deal.

PVV seems more closely analogues to the British National Party or the Democratic Unionists than to UKIP. UKIP always seems a bit embarrassed by their populist leanings, keen to stress its Home County upstandingness, and Farage tends to pull back from being openly demagogic. If you watch them for any length of time you get a distinct sense of anxiety about appearing to be any sort of mass movement, preferring as Flying Pig said to present themselves as the tribunes of "common sense", above (or perhaps below?) any sort of ideological mission, such things being associated with the rough working-class Loyalism of the Clyde and Mersey. Farage's particular take on the "man of the people" routine seems to refuse authority as much as accumulate it, setting himself up less as a charismatic leader and more as a sort of nationally prominent bar-bore, somebody who makes no pretence of expressing the national will but simply "tells it like it is". He's no Mosley or even Paisley, but more like an Enoch Powell for thick people.

Besides, whenever you see Farage posing with beer, it's always bitter, and the only people who drink bitter these days are the middle class, old men and hipsters.

 

[Tahuti]

The BNP is probably too radical for the PVV and possibly even for Front National since the rise of Marine Le Pen, though I generally agree that the PVV is more radical than UKIP. However, the radicalisation regarding Islam coincided with party's move away from the little bit of Libertarian elements they still had when they were a spinoff of the right-liberal VVD.

Geert Wilders originally dissapproved of the Islamophobia of Pim Fortuyn - who opposed Islam for roughly the same reasons US Progressives would oppose overt Christian influence in politics - and the murder of Theo van Gogh sort of was the catalyst that made Islam fall permanently from grace in the eyes of Wilders.

When Geert Wilders left the VVD (which is a liberal party) the PVV was Libertarian in outlook on economics, attempting to appeal to disaffected upper middle-class voters of the VVD. Its anti-immigration view points did the rest for low-information working classes. However, the former did not took off and never became an electorally significant parties, so simply changed into a reborn PvdA (Labour party) of the 1960s - when it was still opposed to guest migration. Of course, the rethoric was starkly different compared to Dutch Labour, though the actual policies are more or less the same, only more outspoken on immigration and Islam.

Now, the UKIP isn't Islamophobic. And that will prevent UKIP from becoming like the PVV. Unlike the UK, which is traditionally more deferent to multiculturalism like most of the English speaking world, The Netherlands has had a strong Anti-Islam movement originally built around Theo van Gogh, Paul Cliteur and Ayaan Hirsi Ali that engaged in proselytising the Enlightenment and supporting Israel against '' Islamic regimes. However, the motivations of this Anti-Islam movement were more Progressive than Conservative, and certainly not aimed at promoting hatred for immigrants. The early, Libertarian PVV's Anti-Islam views were based on exactly that movement, yet when it radicalised, Anti-Islam views were entangled with hatred against Muslim immigrants. The fact that Theo van Gogh was murdered, Paul Cliteur dropped out and Ayaan Hirsi Ali was attacked by Rita Verdonk for supposedly defrauding her immigration application to the Netherlands pretty much killed the original Anti-Islam movement as well and allowed it to be hijacked for Anti-immigrant purposes.

 

[Flying Pig]

Besides, whenever you see Farage posing with beer, it's always bitter, and the only people who drink bitter these days are the middle class, old men and hipsters.

Is that really a Scotsman giving advice on alcohol?

Now, the UKIP isn't Islamophobic. And that will prevent UKIP from becoming like the PVV

Although the party's platform may not be, a great deal of the members - especially those in high places - definitely are. I think we can expect a putative UKIP government to push policies which are either subtly (or more kindly 'thoughtlessly') racist or which simply refuse to address racial issues in a helpful way.

 

[Tahuti]

I think we can expect a putative UKIP government to push policies which are either subtly (or more kindly 'thoughtlessly') racist or which simply refuse to address racial issues in a helpful way.

That's not unlike our VVD (roughly between UKIP and Liberal Democrats in their positions and the biggest party in the Netherlands, as well as a government party) pushing for a ban on cousin marriage because that's the biggest source of Muslim chain immigration.

Despite this, if this ban came roughly 200 years early, the House of Orange-Nassau would have become extinct or at the very least wouldn't have existed the way it has now.

 

[brennan]

So it's an entire party of Joe Liebermans?

More like Oswald Mosleys.

 

[Tahuti]

More like Oswald Mosleys.

I wonder what Alexander Pechtold and Nick Clegg would think of being called Oswald Mosleys...

 

[brennan]

Oops, my mistake. I thought we were still on UKIP.

 

[Tahuti]

Oops, my mistake. I thought we were still on UKIP.

Well, we pretty much shifted back to UKIP now, but yes, the Joe Lieberman comparison - and the accidental Oswald Mosley comparison - was made regarding the Liberal Democrats and D66.

 

[Borachio]

Besides, whenever you see Farage posing with beer, it's always bitter, and the only people who drink bitter these days are the middle class, old men and hipsters.

While there's little worse than a bad pint of bitter, there's objectively nothing better than a good pint.

I'm certainly neither middle class nor a hipster. Which leaves me with "old".

I get the feeling you're just being deliberately mean now, Mr Fish.

 

[Jernsida]

This island of UK is south of Iceland? Yes? It has not sunk yet?

 

[Borachio]

The answers to your three questions would appear to be: yes; it is; and no, not yet.

 

[Traitorfish]

Is that really a Scotsman giving advice on alcohol?

Recounting an ethnography of alcohol. And who could be better equipped?

(The answer is: an Englishman. They don't even drink bitter up here, really, they drink heavy. I have no idea what I'm talking about.)

While there's little worse than a bad pint of bitter, there's objectively nothing better than a good pint.

I'm certainly neither middle class nor a hipster. Which leaves me with "old".

I get the feeling you're just being deliberately mean now, Mr Fish.

For what it's worth, you'd find me filed under the heading of "hipster", so far as beer is concerned.

 

[gay_Aleks]

This island of UK is south of Iceland? Yes? It has not sunk yet?

No, you're confusing it with the Netherlands. Both of them are south of Iceland, but only one of them is constantly drunk and yells at it's neighbours.

 

[Traitorfish]

By the way, today is the 78th anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street, where the Blackshirts had the right royal [faeces] kicked out of them by immigrants and lefties.

Something to reflect upon.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Well, to be fair, they were at a ratio of 3 000 to 100 000. Although, where does the police stand in this case?

 

[Traitorfish]

It was the London Met, so they naturally stood with the other racists in black.