UKIP go from strength to strength

[Truronian]

Out of curiosity, do you agree with UKIP's stances on education Quackers?

 

[Borachio]

It amazes me that a public school ex-City financier who's worked for years as a professional politician in the European government alongside his German wife has managed to win support by saying "this country's problems are caused by immigrants, the elite and the European Union"! I think his appeal confirms three commonplaces of social science. Firstly, television is all about the pictures - pictures of Nigel in the pub outweigh the facts. Secondly, effective advertising is about a simple message - TV doesn't do complexity well. Thirdly and most importantly, it's always easier to blame your problems on the Other - in this case immigrants.

Let's not forget that Farage is a French name! England should never have let those Huguenots in. Farage isn't the solution. Oh dear me no. He's the problem.

But let's face it, without Farage and Johnson what interest does UK politics hold?

"Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England in the 19th century, and it was called Wiff-waff! And there, I think, you have the difference between us and the rest of the world. Other nations, the French, looked at a dining table and saw an opportunity to have dinner; we looked at it an saw an opportunity to play Wiff-waff."

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Didn't it got annihilated? Do you expect them to ever regain a seat in the Bundestag?

Maybe. I am not sure. But in any case, they do exist yet, so actual anihilation is surely a hyperbole, that is all

At this point, they are as insignificant as their closest American counterpart, the Libertarian party.

They still are part of two or so state governments. For now anyway, but hey, that is something.

Not having receiving any media coverage and a vaguely classical liberal ideology will probably end up becoming the party for choice for German objectivists, Rothbardians and the like. Conversely, a Libertarian party that gets seats in Congress will be like the current Dutch D66 as well.

There are no German objectivists, I am fairly sure and most of all proud to say
Also, I think you should keep in mind that about 30 years ago the FDP worked together with the Social Democrats against the Conservatives. Though it is true that this is hard to imagine nowadays.

Anyway, I very much wonder right now weather there is something like a European trend for liberal parties to go down. Perhaps I'll look into it later on.

 

[Tee Kay]

There are no German objectivists, I am fairly sure and most of all proud to say

And that's why Germany is my favourite contemporary European country. Prost!

 

[Borachio]

Objectivism's central tenets are that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform humans' metaphysical ideas by selective reproduction of reality into a physical form—a work of art—that one can comprehend and to which one can respond emotionally.

I'm fine with objectivism up to the end of the first bolded bit. And the second bolded bit looks OK, too.

(On second thoughts, I should have highlighted the middle bit. And expressed doubt about that. Although I'm not so sure about objective knowledge, tbh.)

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

Anyway, I very much wonder right now weather there is something like a European trend for liberal parties to go down. Perhaps I'll look into it later on.

Almost all west European political parties are liberal parties now. The ones that use the word in their name have lost their USP.

 

[Tahuti]

There are no German objectivists, I am fairly sure and most of all proud to say
Also, I think you should keep in mind that about 30 years ago the FDP worked together with the Social Democrats against the Conservatives. Though it is true that this is hard to imagine nowadays.

Anyway, I very much wonder right now weather there is something like a European trend for liberal parties to go down. Perhaps I'll look into it later on.

Well, the point being is that being marginalised will make one attractive to your more extreme ideological cousins.

And are you sure Germany has no Objectivists? The Netherlands has plenty!

Almost all west European political parties are liberal parties now. The ones that use the word in their name have lost their USP.

That is true. The liberal parties are simply more liberal than the rest to be attractive to certain middle class voters.

 

[RFC_Viceroy]

Didn't it got annihilated? Do you expect them to ever regain a seat in the Bundestag? At this point, they are as insignificant as their closest American counterpart, the Libertarian party. Not having receiving any media coverage and a vaguely classical liberal ideology will probably end up becoming the party for choice for German objectivists, Rothbardians and the like. Conversely, a Libertarian party that gets seats in Congress will be like the current Dutch D66 as well.

Just because the Libertarian Party isn't actually winning elections doesn't automatically make them irrelevant. Unfortunately, they haven't actually run a libertarian (small l) since 2004. Bob Barr was a total joke, and Gary was more of a moderate pragmatist who happened to have some libertarian leaning positions. Michael Badnarik, Harry Browne, and Ron Paul were all better candidates (I don't honestly remember who ran in '92, but I do remember he was Paul's VP, so I imagine he was a good choice.) I'm totally in favor of the idea of anarcho-capitalists, minarchists, and even constitutionalists and classical liberals working together against big government in the United States, but the Libertarian Party has liberalized to the point where it doesn't even really represent the more moderate elements of that coalition. The Constitution Party had a more libertarian candidate (Chuck Baldwin, who has a handful of unlibertarian positions but is just a touch behind Ron Paul level on fiscal, foreign, and civil liberty issues) than the Libertarian Party (Former DEA worker and drug warrior Bob Barr.)

Mind you, I'm not under the illusion that the LP will actually win. But if it returned to its radical libertarian roots, it would at least be worth supporting. As is I can't really support any party.

 

[RFC_Viceroy]

Out of curiosity, do you agree with UKIP's stances on education Quackers?

Do they support abolishing public schools?

 

[Borachio]

I don't know. I don't think so.

Farage, allegedly, wants to see a grammar school in every town.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/01/nigel-farage-ukip-schools-taxes

 

[Quackers]

Out of curiosity, do you agree with UKIP's stances on education Quackers?

I am fully in support of restoring the grammar schools.
I'm ignorant of the rest of their education policies. Anything interesting?

 

[Borachio]

How do you feel about the 11+, Mr Q?

Is it fair, for example, to condemn 75% of the population to second class status at such a young age, on the basis of one exam on one particular day?

 

[Takhisis]

I'm ignorant of the rest of their education policies. Anything interesting?

I thoguht you were the one proposing to all of us this wonderful new philosophy called Faragianism.

 

[Quackers]

How do you feel about the 11+, Mr Q?

Is it fair, for example, to condemn 75% of the population to second class status at such a young age, on the basis of one exam on one particular day?

The old system had its imperfections but it was by far superior to the present one. It was certainly psychologically harsh on those who failed the 11+. The only guarantee for a good education in the current system is wealth. If you can afford to live in a catchment area of a good state school or you can afford public school fees you're fine. The rest of the population have to roll the dice and just hope their local school is up to scratch.

At least back then a poor, bright lad had the opportunity to go to an elite school. That's been eliminated.

 

[Takhisis]

Quacks, how do you stand on the issue of the UK government snooping on everyone?

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

The only guarantee for a good education passing the 11+ in the current system is wealth. If you can afford to live in a catchment area of a good state primary school or you can afford public schoolprep school/private tuition fees you're fine. The rest of the population have to roll the dice and just hope their local primary school is up to scratch.

At least back then a poor, bright lass had the opportunity to go to an elite school do well even if she happened to have one bad week when she was 11.

Fixed that for you ;-)

It should also be pointed out that a country where the class system ruins so much of people's lives would not be reducing the amount of social mixing.

 

[Quackers]

Sure, wealthy parents can pay for tuition for their children in preparation for the 11+ which delivers a large advantage in contrast to lower income parents. However, in a grammar school system it is less of an advantage to be wealthy than it is in the present system. We would return to a more equal, but still unequal playing field. That's still an improvement on the current system. Unless you can propose a completely fair way of education without reducing standards massively?

All the leftists I read in the press and in real life always point to how Germany does so well and how we should emulate the German model in everything. They always seem to forget the selection by ability the German system is underpinned by!

 

[Takhisis]

Better to select by ability than by worth of parents' assets.

Wasn't the current Mrs. Farage educated under that system?

 

[Tahuti]

All the leftists I read in the press and in real life always point to how Germany does so well and how we should emulate the German model in everything. They always seem to forget the selection by ability the German system is underpinned by!

The problem of the German (and Dutch) education systems is that academic ability often gets wasted by a very narrow view of what constitutes academic ability, causing people unfit for university to enter university and people fit for universities barred from entry as they cannot even take prerequisite paths.

 

[RFC_Viceroy]

I don't know. I don't think so.

Farage, allegedly, wants to see a grammar school in every town.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/01/nigel-farage-ukip-schools-taxes

Then I am completely opposed to them.

Control the minds of children and you will control the people. That is how every tyrannical system operates. The State has NO rightful authority to determine what children are learning. Some other issues I would compromise on, but not this one.