UKIP go from strength to strength

[Truronian]

Sherlock Holmes thought the sun orbited the earth, and I'd consider him a great man!

But did he buy a £700 love-seat and write it off on expenses?

EDIT:

In other news, Farage doesn't want anyone with HIV coming to the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29565766

#selfishbritain

 

[Takhisis]

I am delighted. First time I've ever fist pumped the air in celebration over politics. The Heywood and Middleton result may even be a greater achievement then Clacton in the bigger picture. An incredible boost in support for UKIP.

Farage was on the BBC claiming UKIP will hold the balance of power. I'm not sure if we will reach that kingmaker status next term but to even be talking about having any MPs is a marvelous improvement.

Who the hell is 'we'? Are you a UKIP member now, Quackers? Even if you are, I seriously doubt that Nigel Farage knows or cares about your existence.

The Vow: Westminster promised Scotland that we would get Devolution Max if the Scottish public backed the Union.

Ceart!

Public perception in Scotland is that a promise made unanimously, if vaguely, by all three major party leaders is as good as a promise from Westminster. You can pick holes in that, but it's how people see it.

That's what happens when people listen to politicians.

#selfishbritain

I thought it had been that way from the late '70s onwards.

 

[Borachio]

Who the hell is 'we'? Are you a UKIP member now, Quackers? Even if you are, I seriously doubt that Nigel Farage knows or cares about your existence.

I suspect the use of the football "we", here. The "we" of association by spectatorship.

Not to be confused with the royal "wee". Which is something to do with urine.

 

[Takhisis]

I suspect the same.

 

[Oruc]

So UKIP won in Clacton, and nearly beat Labour in Heywood and Middleton (their majority dropped from 6000 to 600). It is always difficult to read too much into by election results as they tend to be protest votes, but still I think this is a very serious development.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

Well let that be a lesson, vote Tories get Labour

 

[Alba]

I feel for you, that sounds like a hard situation. If I was you, I would not be hoping for UKIP to do well, I would not imagine that helping your situation at all.

Thank you.

Although, I do think it could help in a way. UKIP is despised by many here in Scotland, and I believe it would bring the next independence referendum sooner rather than later. I'm talking about anytime between 2016 and 2024.

There is a chance that Labour will get slaughtered in the next general election, with those voters flocking to the SNP and other pro-independence parties instead. UKIP is also surging in the opinion polls down in England. The signs are all there for an interesting outcome. We could see a hung parliament.

An estimated 13,000 people will march tomorrow in Glasgow in support for an independent Scotland and/or Devolution Max. This movement is not going away, and it will continue until our goals are met.

 

[Arakhor]

That's the funny thing about goals - they tend to expand in the telling. First UKIP contest and gain one seat with a popular defector and now they're saying they going to contest everything and be a grand force in politics.

Likewise, even the SNP have said that the referendum was a once-in-a-generation thing. How can you possibly have another one so soon without showing everyone in politics to be lying scumbags?

 

[Alba]

I never agreed that this vote should be a once in a generation opportunity. If there's a substantial amount of people demanding a new referendum then it should be considered.

The people's will is always stronger than that of a political party.

 

[Truronian]

The SNP did though, and they are the only party with the power to push for another one.

 

[Domen]

An estimated 13,000 people will march tomorrow in Glasgow in support for an independent Scotland and/or Devolution Max.

Wait - wasn't Devolution Max promised by Cameron already before the referendum, in exchange for support for preserving the Union?

Why am I not surprised that he did not intend to keep his promise. I am only surprised that so many Scottish people believed him.

 

[Truronian]

An interesting info-graphic I spotted on facebook:

 

[Oruc]

Who wants to listen to the green party? and this is coming from someone who voted for them.

 

[Alba]

Wasn't Devolution Max promised by Cameron already before the referendum, in exchange for support for preserving the Union?

It was promised by David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband. However, I don't buy it. There's no way they could give Scotland these powers without giving more powers to every region up and down the length and breadth of the United Kingdom.

Sadly, a lot of people bought it and in the end their fake promises hampered the referendum. Devolution Max was not added into the Edinburgh Act, thus not being on the ballot paper in the first place. It was a deliberate and pathetic attempt to derail the independence referendum. That coupled with all the scaremongering and lies designed to scare the elderly and vulnerable that we would lose our pensions and so on. That is why we are demanding another referendum.

 

[Arakhor]

As opposed to all the "economy with the truth" that was going on with the SNP and their claims? Pretty much every time Westminster said something, Salmond had something else completely different to say and I don't buy for one second that it was always cruel, evil London deliberately lying to innocent little Scotland.

Then of course there were the Shetlands who voted overwhelmingly to remain British, rather than Scottish. Just like UKIP wanted the Union to remain but to get out of Europe, Salmond wanted out of the Union and the Northern Isles with it. That's the trouble with nationalists in general - they only want their interests to be observed, not everyone else's.

 

[Alba]

And the British aren't nationalists? British nationalism is much worse, especially in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The pro-yes side partied in a festival atmosphere, along with people from many different backgrounds, before, during and after defeat. The British nationalists upon victory celebrated by attacking the police and beating up innocent people. The British have had their way for over 300 years.

At the end of the day, if the majority of the nation voted yes to independence, then the entire region goes independent. You can't just leave parts of the country behind because the majority of their inhabitants had opposing views. The Shetland Islands legally belong to Scotland, and they would have to have their own referendum to leave Scotland and rejoin the United Kingdom if that is what they wished for. The largest city in Scotland, Glasgow, overwhelmingly voted yes to independence, does that give us a right to separate? No it doesn't, because the majority of Scotland voted no. The rules of the referendum stated that the winning side must gain over 50% of the overall vote to win.

 

[Domen]

they only want their interests to be observed, not everyone else's.

And that's why people in England don't give a damn about 45% of Scots who voted for independence.

As if 45% was a tiny minority of all Scots, that can be just ignored.

BTW - it is actually possible that the scale was tipped in favour of the Union by people of Non-Scottish ethnicity who live in Scotland.

According to 2011 census, ethnic Scottish people were less than 84% of the population of Scotland (4,445,678 out of 5,295,403):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ethnic_groups_in_Scotland

Scottish - 84,0%
Other British - 7,9% (vast majority of them English)
Irish - 1,0%
Irish Traveller - 0,1%
Polish - 1,2%
Other White ethnic group - 1,9%
Pakistani - 0,9%
Indian - 0,6%
Bangladeshi - 0,1%
Chinese - 0,6%
Other Asian - 0,4%
Caribbean - 0,1%
African - 0,6%
Mixed or multiple ethnicity - 0,4%
Arab - 0,2%
Other - 0,1%

And statistics show that among people who actually identify as ethnic Scottish people, majority supported independence:

Data posted below is from 2013 (when overall support for independence was still lower than during the referendum):

There was a clear correlation between national identity and how people would vote:

"Scottish not British" ----------- ca. 55% Yes, ca. 15% Undecided, ca. 30% No
"More Scottish than British" ----- ca. 40% Yes, ca. 15% Undecided, ca. 45% No
"Equally Scottish and British" ---- ca. 15% Yes, ca. 10% Undecided, ca. 75% No

As illustrated by this graph:

The fact that people of Non-Scottish ethnicity (especially "Other British") voted against secession from the UK, is also illustrated by this data:

Reason why age group 18-24 voted contrary to overall pattern is because it includes many English, etc., people who study in Scotland.

One thing which contributed to "No" victory is the fact that there is no such thing like Scottish citizenship - and not only Scottish citizens were eligible to vote. Because there is no Scottish citizenship, everyone could vote even if they are residents in Scotland just temporarily (like e.g. foreign students).

The only native ethnic Scottish group who voted for the UK, are old people (who will probably not live to see long-term consequences of their vote anyway):

 

[Takhisis]

Who wants to listen to the green party? and this is coming from someone who voted for them.

No one does. The general British English mindset isn't very liberal, certainly not democratic, nor republican. It's more (a)pathetic than anything.

 

[Arakhor]

The British nationalists upon victory celebrated by attacking the police and beating up innocent people.

Because the only thugs in Scotland are those who are pro-Union? You can't seriously believe that.

The Shetland Islands legally belong to Scotland, and they would have to have their own referendum to leave Scotland and rejoin the United Kingdom if that is what they wished for.

Neither you nor I get to decide that, so it's pointless speculating. I was referencing what the Shetlands MP said.

 

[Takhisis]

As long as there isn't something like the Irish partition which still brings us headaches to this day…

 

[Traitorfish]

Then of course there were the Shetlands who voted overwhelmingly to remain British, rather than Scottish. Just like UKIP wanted the Union to remain but to get out of Europe, Salmond wanted out of the Union and the Northern Isles with it. That's the trouble with nationalists in general - they only want their interests to be observed, not everyone else's.

Now, this doesn't quite make sense. On the one hand, you deny the legitimacy of treating Scotland as an indivisible sovereign entity. But on the other, you cite as evidence for this position the indivisible sovereignty of the Shetland Isles. Surely that's self-contradictory?