Unions and the decline of three industries

[Xanikk999]

If their wages are low, they can work hard. Next time payroll reviews roll around, they can present to their employer look I've increased my productivity x% this year, I think I am deserving of a higher wage to compesate me for that. If they are just gifted a higher wage they'll take it for granted and expect it without putting out extra work. Labor is a a resource and an investment, buisnesses want quality employees and will compesate them based on the work they do.

I agree. I would not work for an employer who did not reward hard work and effort. Anyway i think most companies are required to give at least some pay raises to someone or even promotions every once in awhile.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

I agree. I would not work for an employer who did not reward hard work and effort. Anyway i think most companies are required to give at least some pay raises to someone or even promotions every once in awhile.

To go off that. Why would you want to work at a place were you do more work than everybody else, yet everybody else gets rewarded the same as you?

 

[amadeus]

Except many workers don't even have fair wages yet. How can they be motivated when we still are lacking things like a living wage?

How can you support a "living wage" when all it will amount to is U.S. citizens consuming more of the planet's resources? From what I can gather, your logic is that people should be paid more, but should refrain from spending any of that money.

 

[Leatherneck]

Except many workers don't even have fair wages yet. How can they be motivated when we still are lacking things like a living wage?

How can a living wage motovate someone? The motovation comes from within the desire to do better and to succeed, to make more money and improve their life. I living wage and even a minimum wage unmines that. You really need to look at the BIG picture and not the case by case. Seems that thinking can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Unions work in Europe allright.. so why can't they work in the US?

 

[tomsnowman123]

Unions work in Europe allright.. so why can't they work in the US?

America is too conservative.

I agree. I would not work for an employer who did not reward hard work and effort. Anyway i think most companies are required to give at least some pay raises to someone or even promotions every once in awhile.

I am not saying don't reward hard work, I am saying let's have a starting point that's fair.

 

[skadistic]

Unions work in Europe allright.. so why can't they work in the US?

Europe also has a nanny state mentality. In America the mentality is to work hard to get ahead. No one just gives you things you need to work for them. America is far more productive then Europe. We work harder and longer with fewer days off. (but somehow we get a stigma of being fat and lazy). Being a capitalistic society more then a socialist one has geared it so hard work pays off. Unions promote laziness by not giving the buisness OWNER control over his company so that he can hire and fire whomever when ever. If you know that it doesn't matter how hard you work you still get paid are you going to work your hardest? Or are you going to work as hard as Joe next to you who is slacking off because he can.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Europe also has a nanny state mentality. In America the mentality is to work hard to get ahead. No one just gives you things you need to work for them. America is far more productive then Europe. We work harder and longer with fewer days off. (but somehow we get a stigma of being fat and lazy). Being a capitalistic society more then a socialist one has geared it so hard work pays off. Unions promote laziness by not giving the buisness OWNER control over his company so that he can hire and fire whomever when ever. If you know that it doesn't matter how hard you work you still get paid are you going to work your hardest? Or are you going to work as hard as Joe next to you who is slacking off because he can.

Sure, Americans work harder, that is very true. And yes, they are far more productive. But also millions of people are living in poverty and the environment is being neglected. That is what happens in a state that does not take care of its people and where unions are viewed upon as some evil organisation. In theory this working harder getting paid more is a nice thought, but in practice it doesn't work that well at all. There just isn't enough space at the top. Yes, most European countries have a problem that some people are benefiting from social security while they shouldn't, but this same system prevents millions of people from never getting the chance to make something out of themselves because everyone gets an education, and is not left to mercy when he loses his jobs. Also, all the rules in the welfare-state made European companies find far more effective ways to produce.. how else do you explain that there still are big European companies and multinationals?

 

[Commodore]

In some sectors, paying union dues is compulsory, whether you are a member or not.

Do you know why that is? It is because labor laws state that a union must represent all who are in the bargaining unit, whether they are a member of the union or not. So, if you're not a member, the union still has to help you out, in which case I think it is only fair that that you give them something in return (you're not expecting them to help you for free, are you?).

 

[Arcadian83]

I'd rather negotiate my salary separately, than let the union do it for me. As for other changes, just because a co-worker lobbies for changes that I benefit from does not mean I must pay said co-worker.

 

[skadistic]

Sure, Americans work harder, that is very true. And yes, they are far more productive. But also millions of people are living in poverty and the environment is being neglected. That is what happens in a state that does not take care of its people and where unions are viewed upon as some evil organisation. In theory this working harder getting paid more is a nice thought, but in practice it doesn't work that well at all. There just isn't enough space at the top. Yes, most European countries have a problem that some people are benefiting from social security while they shouldn't, but this same system prevents millions of people from never getting the chance to make something out of themselves because everyone gets an education, and is not left to mercy when he loses his jobs. Also, all the rules in the welfare-state made European companies find far more effective ways to produce.. how else do you explain that there still are big European companies and multinationals?

The millions in poverty are there by thier own lack of will to get out.
The enviroment for the amout of prodution is far cleaner then else where in the world. This BS of the US is polluting as much as posible has got to stop. We are not the leading polluter in the world. Since the Kyoto treaty (something we rightly stayed out of) pollution levels over all have dropped in the US and risen or stayed the same in the majority of signataries.

The unions are evil organizations. They want to controll the companies.

The "theory" of working hard and getting ahead? Yea right "theory".

The Euro welfair states don't give out the schooling and what not for "free" its paid for by taxxing the everliving hell out of the people that do have jobs. Euro companies have found more efficant way to do things because if not they would be gone. This isn't a shining example of how the welfair is workin it shows that it is very destructive to companies and the companies are doing what must to survive. In America a man who loses his job isn't left to "mercy" his left to his skills.

 

[willemvanoranje]

The millions in poverty are there by thier own lack of will to get out.
The enviroment for the amout of prodution is far cleaner then else where in the world. This BS of the US is polluting as much as posible has got to stop. We are not the leading polluter in the world. Since the Kyoto treaty (something we rightly stayed out of) pollution levels over all have dropped in the US and risen or stayed the same in the majority of signataries.

Of course they had the right to get out of it. Anyone does. But is it the smart and right thing to do? And sure, China is far far worse to name one example. At least the American streats are pretty clean! But let's look at American cars for example. That's some big ass polluters, and they don't need to be. Just a small example.

Also, do you have some sources where it specifically states which countries have increased their output and which have decreased it?

The unions are evil organizations. They want to controll the companies.

Not control. Just prevent them from being overpowerful, like parlament is supposed to prevent the government from being overpowerful. Are you familiar with the speach Eisenhower (or was it Truman?) made when getting out of presidency?

The "theory" of working hard and getting ahead? Yea right "theory".

It's a theory that works.. sometimes. Do you really think some single mother in some slum working two or three jobs isn't working hard? Still it is very, very rare for any of them to actually get ahead.

The Euro welfair states don't give out the schooling and what not for "free" its paid for by taxxing the everliving hell out of the people that do have jobs.

Yes, taxes are higher, and yes we do not have ridiculous flat-tax. It's a way to be social, to take care of one another.

Euro companies have found more efficant way to do things because if not they would be gone. This isn't a shining example of how the welfair is workin it shows that it is very destructive to companies and the companies are doing what must to survive. .

You just proved my point. Sure, welfare means higher taxes, which can be a hit for the economy and bad for companies. Regulations on environmental stuff costs the companies more, but somehow they managed to find a way to be more effective, survive and even be competitive. In other words, they are miles ahead. They make the same product for a comparable price, yet it is much better for environment..

In America a man who loses his job isn't left to "mercy" his left to his skills.

So people are just unemployed because they are lazy? If they are left to their skills, why are there so many people without a job.. and even more without a job that actually pays enough to get them somewhere. Most of these people never got a good education, and live in an area where their children won't get any either. So maybe one or two out of a million is so brilliant he is discovered and somehow manages to get out of the situation, but what about the other 999,998?

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Unions work in Europe allright.. so why can't they work in the US?

Our economy likes to grow, and our citizens like having jobs.

 

[skadistic]

Of course they had the right to get out of it. Anyone does. But is it the smart and right thing to do? And sure, China is far far worse to name one example. At least the American streats are pretty clean! But let's look at American cars for example. That's some big ass polluters, and they don't need to be. Just a small example.America has some of the most stringent emmision control standards in the world

Also, do you have some sources where it specifically states which countries have increased their output and which have decreased it? Not on hand.



Not control. Just prevent them from being overpowerful, like parlament is supposed to prevent the government from being overpowerful. Are you familiar with the speach Eisenhower (or was it Truman?) made when getting out of presidency?
No unions in America want to control the companies. When I no longer dictate how much I pay My employes and what bennifits I have to pay out of My pocket and what other extras that cost Me I no longer control the company.


It's a theory that works.. sometimes. Do you really think some single mother in some slum working two or three jobs isn't working hard? Still it is very, very rare for any of them to actually get ahead.Its not a theory its the American way. And it works for the people that want it to. Your single mother example is great but you leave out some things. Instaed of screwing around she should have been working hard in school. She has no one to blame but her self for her situation. And I'm willing to bet shes still getting help from the state. I'll give her credit that shes working instead of just being a welfare addict.



Yes, taxes are higher, and yes we do not have ridiculous flat-tax. It's a way to be social, to take care of one another. Being social is saying hello. Paying out the arse to cover for the ones who are to lazy to do for them selve is sad.



You just proved my point. Sure, welfare means higher taxes, which can be a hit for the economy and bad for companies. Regulations on environmental stuff costs the companies more, but somehow they managed to find a way to be more effective, survive and even be competitive. In other words, they are miles ahead. They make the same product for a comparable price, yet it is much better for environment..



So people are just unemployed because they are lazy? If they are left to their skills, why are there so many people without a job.. and even more without a job that actually pays enough to get them somewhere. Most of these people never got a good education, and live in an area where their children won't get any either. So maybe one or two out of a million is so brilliant he is discovered and somehow manages to get out of the situation, but what about the other 999,998?Not sure where you get that so many are with out jobs. Our unemployment rates are very low. 5%. As far as education goes all Americans get the same basic education. The ones who try hard get better grades and better jobs. Any American has the chance to be sucsesful. I went to the free public school got the same schooling as 2000 people. I became a drug addict and was a worthless homeless bum. But I still found a way to work every day. Now I own my own buisness. I work from home and live a comfortable life. I had the same oppertunity as everyone else and tossed it away. Then I got sick and tiered of being sick and tiered. I have no one to blame for my downtimes and no one to praise for my success but my self. I got ahead because I wanted to bad enough and did something about it. Any one can make it ibn America the ones who try harded do better. It all boils down to persoal respouncability.

Back to unions.

The local union has tried more then once to sabotage my buisness. I've been black listed from some suppliers. They tried to picket my office. That didn't work out to well. Union dues go to pay for political races. If your a republican your dues are going to pay for a demicrate. And unions don't always pay more. I was working for a non-union shop and getting payed $11 an hour when the union came in I got a $.25 raise, I also had to pay a few houndred dollars a year in dues. Do the math and that $.25 isn't worth much. I also had to switch my insurance plans to one that covered less and cost more. Needless to say after 2 weeks I found a new job doing the same work for $13.50 an hour at a non-union shop.

 

[CaptainF]

Your single mother example is great but you leave out some things. Instaed of screwing around she should have been working hard in school. She has no one to blame but her self for her situation.

I personally know a single mother who is raising two kids who wasn't exactly a hoodrat. Theres a thing called divorce, ya know.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

I personally know a single mother who is raising two kids who wasn't exactly a hoodrat. Theres a thing called divorce, ya know.

That's more a matter of a court enforcing alimony and child support, not creating a broad welfare system or promoting large unions. Macroeconomic policy should not be based on someone choosing a lousy husband.

 

[skadistic]

I personally know a single mother who is raising two kids who wasn't exactly a hoodrat. Theres a thing called divorce, ya know.

She should have either not gotten married, not had kids or stuck it out in a crappy marrige for the kids sake. Again its her actions and in-actions that have her in the situation shes in. She can blame only herself.

 

[Whomp]

Virtually no part of the employer-employee relationship remains unregulated today (HR depts! )and therefore the protections that a union might have offered are available to all at no direct cost.

Out of touch, lazy union organizers with limited knowledge of the plant or industry being organized. Professional Union representatives - not employees - are usually the main point of contact between the union and the floor and when the organizer can't talk basic shop or industry issues, it doesn't take much for the targetted employees to see themselves as just another future dues check.

Unions arose in response to poor working conditions. Poor working conditions are largely non-existent now, with the exception of migrant farm workers. Pay and benefits are largely driven by the marketplace (except for public sector jobs), and the impact of unions on pay has been negative in the last few decades, as the unions which would rather have the company go bankrupt than give in to management's demands have shown (Eastern Airlines; Pan Am; etc.).

Time to give them the boot in Detroit.

Here's a funny piece from the Onion some of you might want to read...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28982

 

[willemvanoranje]

Ok guys, if this is the way you look upon the world, then so be it. We are not going to agree here. You must have been born into a reasonably wealthy family, because you do not at all worry about what might happen if you fall one day.

I do understand your point of view on unions though. From the story they seem to be somewhat different from the unions over here. I guess it's all just cultural difference, and the only thing I still strongly have to counter too is the small cynical remarks people keep making that unions make companies lose money.. yet still are there so many big European companies. And well, you can't honestly say that every American has the possibility to get a good education.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Ok guys, if this is the way you look upon the world, then so be it. We are not going to agree here. You must have been born into a reasonably wealthy family, because you do not at all worry about what might happen if you fall one day.

My parents were both raised by middle class families, got an education, paid there way through college with student loans, and through their jobs and careful money management have risen themselves to upper middle class. There is nothing preventing others from doing the same. Somebody who is dirt poor is never going to be the next Bill Gates, but over generations of hard work you can improve your or your childrens standard of living.

As for me "not worrying if I fall down," I understand the value of saving and having something to fall back on. Through a paper route and a job at McDonald's I have savings that far surpasses much of my peers, and I plan to keep that same saving ethic with me in the future. The problem is people think there current job and situation is guareenteed and there is never anything that could go wrong, add that to the negative savings rate America currently has and an economic hiccup hurts a lot of people due to their short sightedness. I'm confident in my ability to find new employement or meet bill payments using my savings wisely, rather than wait for a gift from the government or a union.

I do understand your point of view on unions though. From the story they seem to be somewhat different from the unions over here. I guess it's all just cultural difference, and the only thing I still strongly have to counter too is the small cynical remarks people keep making that unions make companies lose money.. yet still are there so many big European companies. And well, you can't honestly say that every American has the possibility to get a good education.

Yes you can have a big company and unions, but overtime the unions feel entitled to the wage and benefit increases without the same gains in productivity. This mentality has caused large and unnecessary costs for employeers and in turn the consumers of the product. If unions high demands manage to drag a stuggling buisness under, then the employees they represent are out of work.

A more appropriate solution to improving the oppertunities of the lower class is to improve education. The first step, eliminate teachers unions, so the horrible teachers out there aren't shielded, and to get wage increases they have to prove their worth.