Unit and Promotions Revamp Blog Post

[Valkrionn]

http://greyfox.me/rife/blog/2011/09/17/unit-and-promotions-revamp/

Feel free to ask questions... They may or may not be answered at this point.

 

[PotatoSamurai]

Here, there, or on the forums?

 

[Valkrionn]

Any, doesn't particularly matter.

 

[Nor'easter]

Will have to see how this all plays out in practice to more fully comment, but some preliminary reactions:

-- I'm particularly intrigued to see how Mana and Faith end up operating in-game, that seems like a pretty significant change that will take some getting used to. (I'm less concerned about figuring out other military lines, tbh.)

-- I like what you're doing with naval units, should really help the AI.

-- Good move to bring back a line of anti-cavalry units.

-- What happens to the Bannor Chain of Command now that you're making that standard for Commanders? I thought that was a nice unique characteristic for the Bannor. Are you going to substitute something else for the Bannor here, or will their Chain of Command operate somewhat differently from the generic?


Just some preliminary reactions, as I said. Most of this will have to be experienced in gameplay for more thorough feedback.

 

[Valkrionn]

Bannor will have something a bit more indepth/easier to access, as well as likely gaining something "new".


Also, just to elaborate a bit on some alternative magic users.... The blog details only the standard mages, but we also have two niche varieties; Shamans and Runecasters.

• Shaman:
  • These guys are currently only slightly different from your standard adept, but in the future, they will replace the full Arcane line for those civs possessing them.
  • The initial Shaman unit will be fairly standard between the three; Able to utilize a few basic spells (Attack, Buff, etc), the effect of which is based on the tile the shaman is on.
  • The second tier will be more unique between civs (currently Archos, Clan, Doviello), and the final tier will be quite different, and replace the Druid.
    • As an example of this, check the current Haruspex or Priest of Bhall units; These would be the final upgrade of the Shaman.
    • They will be focused towards a damage type defining that civ; Poison, Fire, or Beast respectively.
  • "Standard" Druids may or may not adopt the terrain-based spell system; I'm leaning towards doing it, personally, with a "Nature" bent.
• Runecaster:
  • These will be the domain of the Dwarves; Through the use of special Runes, they are able to buff nearby friendly units (will be done via the use of Auras).
  • There will be NO offensive magic here; Solely Buffs (and possibly debuffs for enemies); Runes do not cause damage. Yes, I can see the argument for something akin to a landmine, but we've decided not to include such spells.
  • Khazad will be the primary benefactor, and are fully excluded from standard magic.
  • The Luchuirp will be able to use normal magic, but in return are limited solely to golem-modifying runes. Of course, that's quite likely to be enough...

There may or may not be other civs using these mechanics, whether they be new or modified to fit; The descriptions above are confirmed though.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

 

[arcticnightwolf]

yay for Jheral's blog entry !
i'm looking forward to see this in action

 

[BvBPL]

With more units focusing primarily on ranged attacks, what are the changes for the ranged attack system? In many circumstances, ranged attacks are almost useless because they always target the best defender. So you could have a score of archery units shooting at phalanx, all of them doing close to no damage because the ranged attack is so weak relative to the defender.

Will there be an easier means to remove the obscured line of sight anti-promo for firing into a wooded square? Right now that requires the forester promo, but that’s not easy to obtain for most ranged units as it requires an upgrade from a warrior or similar.

Do you envision a system that requires mix unit tactics, or will players be able to focus on a limited number of lines as they can now?

What about upgrading? It has been mentioned in the past that the current upgrade lines will be changed up w/ new ones. I want to hear about the new upgrade lines.

 

[Valkrionn]

With unit strengths rebalanced, multiple archers would be far more difficult to ignore.

Not sure yet on Obscured LoS

You will absolutely have to mix up the units you use. Focus on one or two, but utilize the others as well.

Not sure yet.

 

[PotatoSamurai]

So you could have a score of archery units shooting at phalanx...

That's essentially a scene in 300, is it not? Part of the point of heavy infantry is to soak up the pins and needles. That's where ranged cavalry come in, to run behind and turn Greeks into porcupines (vis-a-vis Parthia).

Ranged Infantry: Does anyone remember the skirmishers from Age of Empires 2? Well, I think the ranged infantry are essentially similar in thought, or perhaps I'm thinking of the recon units.

Polearms: I have never liked it when games have polearm units; they either make mounted units useless, or are themselves useless due to overspecialization. Mounted units are antipersonnel; having an anti-antipersonnel class is begging for difficulty. Nonetheless, I do like your approach, specifically reducing withdrawal chances.

Another way that could allow Polearms to be less pigeonholed while retaining distinction is to make them less effective against units with a Fortification bonus and/or Terrain Defense bonuses. Then, the spears can run down the horses and as well as generic defense.

Rogues: Probe teams! Great to see a distinction between Assassin-type and Ranger-type now.

I'll touch on Navals later, I expect

 

[Valkrionn]

Our polearms are essentially Stack Defenders; Anti-mounted utility is secondary to this, and of primary importance only when defending Mages (as Mounted will be able to Flank arcane units; Never send a mage anywhere without his polearm defenders!).

Note that Archers no longer have high defensive values, at all; Use Polearms for that.

 

[Jheral]

War machines and Archers get flanked, too. So not just mages. Either way, defending vulnerable units.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah yeah. I'm mostly going to be concerned with my mages.

 

[IronClaymore]

There will be NO offensive magic here; Solely Buffs (and possibly debuffs for enemies); Runes do not cause damage. Yes, I can see the argument for something akin to a landmine, but we've decided not to include such spells.

Yeah! I don't need any fancy damage spells. I was never the biggest spell fan anyway, what I love is the ability to field a legion of elite infantry in heavy plate armour, buff them up the wazoo with commanders, magic and equipment, and annihilate anything that dares stand in its way. Because that's what dwarves do best.

 

[Nookie12]

All the new features looks cool ! I hope that you guys spare some time for AI training too. The unque features are cool, but they do no weather if there's no competiton to try it all out. If to be true.... The Ai improvement is the only thing I would like to see, everything other is useless if u get bored and enter World builder to give some help to poor AI

 

[Valkrionn]

We do plan to improve the AI, but one thing to keep in mind: It is impossible to program an effective AI when the framework you seek to teach it is in flux. Meaning, mechanical changes MUST come before the AI work, or else we spent long hours making a great AI... only to have it fall on it's face when the new mechanics are in.

 

[Blueboots]

I'm really interested at the prospect of an offensive ranged branch, but would these units receive city attack promotions much like Rogue and base Melee? Also, would these offensive archers stem from the same techs (more or less) as defensive archers? Finally, would they be upgraded from a Master Fletcher, a Master Smith, or both?

Any answers are appreciated.

 

[Trappisto]

Any chance you could give the Druids shape shifting spells at 4 & 6 levels?:

Dov: Wolf (+1 movement), Dire Bear (+2 Str)
Arch: Scorp (+1 poison combat), Spider (+2Poison combat)
Clan: Hawk (Reccy & Rebase), Lightning elemental (+1 air affinity)

Spell would be duration 1 turn and could be auto cast at start of turn.

ty

 

[Beleaguered]

If your concerned about a weak AI, I find it`s usually due to the barbarians that seem omnipresent, when I plan to play a game focused on fighting the other players, I always turn off savage faction and lairs. Put it on deity too I guess, though the bannor seem to have crusade going with 200 turns on marathon half the time with that.