Unit Limit Per Tile

[os79]

Option #3!

I simply dislike this feature, period. And no more support for it so Afforess energy can be more focused on other features elsewhere . No offense intended...

I'm highly concerned about one unit rule in Civ5 unless it means one unit as in multiple types of military groups in one group. Otherwise, many unit stack is a lesser evil in comparison with one, or even limited number of units.

Of course if you can make a very specific rule of allowing composition of units in one stack (2 siege, 4 melee, 3 archer, 5 gunpowder replacing melee and archer (excepting arbustxxxx(sp?) that only replace archers), 1 or 2 anti-air, 1 helicopter, 1 special unit (spy, special forces, etc). And then you add in new layer of combat to the game (still turn-based). Only then will I even consider having this feature being a part of the game.

However, if Afforess is still willing and still make this just an option, then obviously I have nothing to fear except for slower progress (very slight ) on other fronts.

Bolded paragraph is the critical part of my comments here, ignore the rest of them just as a rant .

 

[Killtech]

i think the UPT limit is more popular then expected. and it makes the game much more interesting then expected. and as there seem to be many who use it this mod component should get the same attention like every other part of AND.

i think you should give this mod a chance before repulsing it. play one complete game with 3 UPT and judge it afterwards. conquest becomes not as trivial as it was before.

as for stacking... indeed since there is no real range of arches and siege weapons unlike Civ 5 you will still require some stacking of your troops (that's why 3UPT is optimal) to protect your support (in Civ V they have range 2 so no need for that). but the fun part is that you actually can't just stack every form of defense in one plot! so you need to watch which units the enemy has on the field and place your units accordingly. it somewhat becomes like chess and not as boring as just place my unattackable SoD on a defensive position near their city and take it over without much effort. and of course you notice that siege weapons are less weapons of mass destruction as they become less effective when the enemy doesn't stack all his units in one plot. a catapult is then not as powerful as an a-bomb anmyore.

 

[DRJ]

1.) Disallow unit construction in that city. No more land units can be built until some units leave.
Drawbacks: This could cripple the AI.

I like this feature. Instead of making too many units AI then would concentrate more on economy, buildings and settlers (non-combat-units must be excepted from tile limit rule!) Would make "start as minors" more challenging, as AI wouldn't build that many units anymore and lay off economic expansion.

2.) Kick the units out to the nearest valid tile.
Drawbacks: On a 1 tile island, units would be kicked to the nearest shore. Pretty much a free exploit for the player. This could be gamed easily.

I don't see valid exploit patterns here. It's pretty seldom to settle on a one-tile Island
and you could mod it that way that if there is no valid tile to drop new units to, like if a city is sieged from all sides, no new units may be allowed to build, what would combine 1) and 2) under one rule.

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, the obvious awnser is that if there's no open land tile directly next to the city, it THEN shuts off building, but otherwise, the new unit is just dropped next to the city - a rather elegant solution to the problem, without allowing a city to have 15 defenders in a 3UPT game.

As soon as I get a new/refurb graphics card in my system, I play to test this at 5UPT... seems like a great idea.

EDIT: The good news: found my old graphics card
The bad news: My old graphics card is a 7600 GT, which compared to my GTX 280 is like stabbing myself in the eyesockets.

 

[Sonereal]

I like this feature. Instead of making too many units AI then would concentrate more on economy, buildings and settlers (non-combat-units must be excepted from tile limit rule!) Would make "start as minors" more challenging, as AI wouldn't build that many units anymore and lay off economic expansion.


I don't see valid exploit patterns here. It's pretty seldom to settle on a one-tile Island
and you could mod it that way that if there is no valid tile to drop new units to, like if a city is sieged from all sides, no new units may be allowed to build, what would combine 1) and 2) under one rule.

Non-combat units aren't bound by the rule already. The problem with solution A is that the AI, unless they know to move units out of the city, won't build anymore. A human can easily take advantage of that.

I like option two but make it impossible to build more units if the surrounding tiles are full or inaccessible so a 1-tile island can build only 3 units anyway and sieges aren't prolonged due to having to reduce defensive modifiers while the AI keep building units.

A bit off topic: Turning off Open Borders (and leaving in Rite of Passage) has lead to one-tile islands becoming a strategic investment.

 

[Sonereal]

On another note: My fear that the AI doesn't throw what it can at me during wars turned out to be unfounded when I made the biggest mistake I've made with a declaration of war.

I declared war on the Hittites (whose vassal are the Zulus). I had already set up a very long frontline along the English-Hittite border (English being my vassal), a very small front on the English-Zulu border in the Middle East and another small frontline on my border with them in North Africa.

I thought that a concentrated attack would overwhelm the Hittites since they were busy fighting in Africa and my previous experiences made it feel like the AI would've just laid over and die once I got close to their cities but I failed and my line was broken in one area and eventually encircled. Meanwhile, my North African campaign is failing due to enemy siege weapons and high defensive modifiers. I had a small force in England to delay the Hittites.

What ended up happening was that things grounded to a halt in North Africa and the English defenses were smashed at York and the only way I could've ended the war was by giving up Sparta to the Hittites. I swore, saved, and decided I'm going to start a new game since the Ethiopians (the guys who I jumped in the war for in the first place) surrendered and capitulated to the Hittites. Even though the Zulus broke off from the Hittites, the Hittites have power over all of sub-Saharan Africa (through Ethiopia) and all of Asia except the Middle East and now have a foothold in Europe because I had to give up Sparta.

Oddly enough, there's a major military power in the New World which is scary since they're the 2nd biggest according to a pop-up.

Anyway, the point is that wars are incredibly interesting to handle since previously, the AI would've sent a giant stack at York and I would've sent a stack of siege weapons at that stack and smashed the Hittites eto bits. Instead, a part of my frontline broke, and the Hittites slowly started to surround my forces and things dragged to an unbearable halt in North Africa.

I think my problem was that I had too many siege wapons and not enough anti-crossbow or cavalry forces which tore up my main force of swordsmen.

 

[Sonereal]

I hope this isn't the wrong place to ask but how would one go about merging xUPT with another mod? Some people over at the FFH forums are interested.

 

[Valkrionn]

Question for you Afforess: Is the code involved in xUPT well documented in your source? Interested in merging it, though I'm not sure I'd do it quite yet (big plans for unit revisions, will likely wait till that's done).

Seeing as it's both completely optional, and easily changed in game... I think it's a good way to satisfy the people who beg for it constantly AND the people who hate the idea. Personally, I'd play with a limit between 5 and 10... Not sure exactly where.

I hope this isn't the wrong place to ask but how would one go about merging xUPT with another mod? Some people over at the FFH forums are interested.

You could say that....

 

[Afforess]

The code is fairly simple... The SDK bit anyway. Making it customizable in-game requires the BUG mod, or some setting that can change GlobalDefines. All of the necessary code is in CvUnit::canMoveInto(...). It has some comments to explain some of it.

You should be forewarned, canMoveInto only checks if the unit can move into the tile. If the tile is over-full, units won't be kicked out. It's a bit of an exploit for cities, and I haven't come up with a catch-all solution for it, so I've left it alone.

 

[Valkrionn]

The code is fairly simple... The SDK bit anyway. Making it customizable in-game requires the BUG mod, or some setting that can change GlobalDefines. All of the necessary code is in CvUnit::canMoveInto(...). It has some comments to explain some of it.

You should be forewarned, canMoveInto only checks if the unit can move into the tile. If the tile is over-full, units won't be kicked out. It's a bit of an exploit for cities, and I haven't come up with a catch-all solution for it, so I've left it alone.

Hmm... Think a popup (ala AIAutoPlay) would work?

If all code is in canMoveInto, I'll have to expand it slightly; Need it in onUnitCreated too, as I'd rather have the units bumped off to other tiles than stack infinitely in cities. Would have it only go out to workable plots for that city (so generally two radius, up to 3 for some civs/cities), and only plots that are connected via a landroute. Otherwise, military units cannot be placed.

 

[Afforess]

Hmm... Think a popup (ala AIAutoPlay) would work?.

Sure.

If all code is in canMoveInto, I'll have to expand it slightly; Need it in onUnitCreated too, as I'd rather have the units bumped off to other tiles than stack infinitely in cities. Would have it only go out to workable plots for that city (so generally two radius, up to 3 for some civs/cities), and only plots that are connected via a landroute. Otherwise, military units cannot be placed.

Just make sure you handle cases where all the adjacent tiles are full too...

 

[Killtech]

Hmm... Think a popup (ala AIAutoPlay) would work?

If all code is in canMoveInto, I'll have to expand it slightly; Need it in onUnitCreated too, as I'd rather have the units bumped off to other tiles than stack infinitely in cities. Would have it only go out to workable plots for that city (so generally two radius, up to 3 for some civs/cities), and only plots that are connected via a landroute. Otherwise, military units cannot be placed.

sounds like a good solution.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sure.



Just make sure you handle cases where all the adjacent tiles are full too...

Good; That's the way I'll do it then. Not something I've done before, but it won't be too hard to do from looking at it. Will be able to add a nice little display telling you the number, as well.... Possibly even allow clicking that to bring up the popup, rather than a keycombo.


When adjacent tiles are full, you are unable to build military units. Better than just blocking military units when the city tile is full, but also prevents having units pop out 4 tiles away, or across a body of water.

 

[Iceciro]

Can't get away from Valk and his damn hamsters no matter where I go or what mod I play

Was just popping in to say how stellar this is, Aforess... this really makes it for me, and I can't wait to get some good MP going with the 3 UPT limit... even against the AIs we're both forming up lines of battle and its beautiful.

Makes me want Civ V more too Already sold on tossing out the Stack of Doom.

 

[Valkrionn]

Can't get away from Valk and his damn hamsters no matter where I go or what mod I play

Was just popping in to say how stellar this is, Aforess... this really makes it for me, and I can't wait to get some good MP going with the 3 UPT limit... even against the AIs we're both forming up lines of battle and its beautiful.

Makes me want Civ V more too Already sold on tossing out the Stack of Doom.

No, no you cannot.

To be fair, I wouldn't have known of this if it wasn't brought up by someone else. I only actively browse the FfH forum and the download database; Always checking for new art.


Your post brings up an interesting question though... How does this work in MP? Namely, how does changing the limit work? I'd assume only the host can change it?

 

[Afforess]

Your post brings up an interesting question though... How does this work in MP? Namely, how does changing the limit work? I'd assume only the host can change it?

Indeed. Most of my settings are only changeable for the host, and greyed out for other players. When I do make MP officially supported, I plan on creating a new array, like the existing PlayerOptions one, where the settings can work player-to-player.

To be fair, I wouldn't have known of this if it wasn't brought up by someone else. I only actively browse the FfH forum and the download database; Always checking for new art.

Hmm, Really? I usually make sure to check the popular C&C project forums for ideas. Rhye's forums has interesting discussions occasionally, as do FFH's.

 

[Valkrionn]

The tile limit would have to be global to be fair, IMO.

But having it only work for the host is fine; IIRC, that's how AIAutoPlay works in MP, at least in FF and RifE.

 

[Fafnir13]

Would it be possible to have an increased limit in cities and a slightly increased limit in forts? Something percentage based so it would scale well no matter what you select.

 

[Iceciro]

Would it be possible to have an increased limit in cities and a slightly increased limit in forts? Something percentage based so it would scale well no matter what you select.

I wouldn't be opposed to this, though I admit I really like the fact that keeping the same limit means most combats take place in the field, something I've always felt civ has lacked in a large way.

It does make sense for forts, perhaps?

 

[Hashishim]

im not to sure wether it is already implemented in the game, but is it possible for ships(even military vessels) and airplanes(jets etc) to be excluded from the tile limiting, since naturally you cant really set a front line for planes and stuff, and they all have bases, are these units applicable to the unit limit rule?