Up to 2000 dead in recent Boko Haram attack?

[Phrossack]

Poe's Law strikes again. And again. And again.

 

[Ajidica]

The problem is that popular support as well as democracy does not work in Africa as experience shows. To bring law & order into this region the only viable solutions either right dictatorship, kingdomship or, the best one, colonialism by culturally superior nation.

So by culturally superior you are referring to Belgium? "Hands! Hands for everyone!"

I did two quite obvious statement. The first one is that democracy does not work in Africa. Do you really think what we have now since de-colonization in Africa can be called a social order that works? In my opinion, it is a social disorder.

Where are you talking about in Africa? Africa is a continent, not a country. Nigeria is not Botswana is not Angola is not Tanzania is not Mozambique. The way things are going, I would rather live in Botswana than Russia. At the very least it is warm there.

The best time for African countries was the time of colonialism when European countries with superior culture were ruling over them and doing this job marvelously. Economy was running, standards of living were rising, local people had access to European-style education.

I'm going to have to correct you on the local receiving European-style education thing. One of the largest problems African countries had post-independence was a complete lack of trained administrators. Ghana was considered the 'best case' for colonialism as it had by colonial African standards a stable government with a large number of trained civil servants. British colonial administration numbered around 2,000 people. Ghana could barely scrape together 200 trained administrators. Basically throughout colonial Africa there was a systemic attempt by colonial powers to prevent local Africans from receiving any sort of higher education.
Additionally, with regards to rising living standards, I would like to see your information on it. After all, Africa is a big place and what may have been true in Zaire would not necessarily be true in Botswana.

But these days we may not have this solution ready as former colonizers became colonizees and lost a lot of their colonizing ability.

Colonialism isn't an RPG where the ability to 'colonize' is gained on level up, but can be lost when re-specing your character.

Next best answer is to install monarchy which works better than democracy especially in Africa's like conditions. Just make sure monarch is European-educated and kept in checked by some other respected European monarch.

You know you are in a bad place when you more-or-less quote Mobutu straight out as to why democracy doesn't work in Africa.
Also for what it is worth, Jonas Savimbi (former UNITA leader) was considered by most who met him a well educated and intelligent man, but that didn't stop him from helping Angola spiral into a 20 year civil war.

We also have a more straight but also plausible solution: right dictatorship. Left dictatorship do not really work well as they are quasi-religious and full of silly progressivist dogmas incompatible with reality (like equality and such). Right dictators tend to follow laws of nature, so they more apt in governing. Install right dictator and allow him to do what should be done with Boko haramists and same people.

For what its worth, the 'good dictators' in Africa, such as Jerry Rawlins in Ghana, used their dictatorial powers to try and get something resembling democracy going.

 

[Snorrius]

Poe's Law strikes again. And again. And again.

We call it grim humor it here. You state something realistic but, understanding that you are among people who are indoctrinated by (quasi)religious values beyond any help, you add some humor into your grim, realistic assessment of reality which is too far away from the paradise where happy liberated people vote correctly and install responsible governments. The result is grim humor.

 

[Gucumatz]

I have always held the view that a strong dictatorship/kingship that is ruled fairly/justly can in theory be better than democratic rule, due to speed of efficacy and efficiency in policy implementation.

Unstable/young countries need strong leaders and those can emerge regardless of totalitarian rule or democracy. Nigeria WAS ruled by a dictatorship for a while - and economic conditions only improved marginally, mostly because of natural resources rather than strong economic development or good leadership during that time. If Nigeria were to become a dictatorship/kingdom/whatever today there is little likelihood things would improve significantly with its amount of corruption
=============

Anyways back to the story -

I read on deutsche welle that there are still thousands trapped/fleeing the area from Boko Haram without any good way to get out. Some civilians who were able to flee the area are refuting the statement from the Nigerian government that "significant military operations" are underway, some of those civilians claiming they hadn't seen a single Nigerian troop while they had been fleeing.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Soooooooooooooo..............at what point does intervention become an attractive option?

Serious question.

Better still -
when does it become a moral necessity? (never?)

 

[Arwon]

Not sure it'd do any good unfortunately.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Soooooooooooooo..............at what point does intervention become an attractive option?

Serious question.

Better still -
when does it become a moral necessity? (never?)

Are you an enlightened European/American looking for new lands to occupy and peoples to enlighten? Then it is not an attractive option, it is your moral duty.

Poe's Law strikes again. And again. And again.

Less like strikes and more like kneecaps you with a baseball over and over for all eternity.

 

[HannibalBarka]

The problem is that popular support as well as democracy does not work in Africa as experience shows. To bring law & order into this region the only viable solutions either right dictatorship, kingdomship or, the best one, colonialism by culturally superior nation.

You're absolutely right buddy, and that is why I have always thought Russians shouldn't have fought against being ruled by culturally superior nation Germany. You'd be driving BMW instead of Lada by now

 

[gay_Aleks]

You're absolutely right buddy, and that is why I have always thought Russians shouldn't have fought against being ruled by culturally superior nation Germany. You'd be driving BMW instead of Lada by now

Or even better, let the interventionists win in the Russian Civil War! They could be driving Reno and drink English whiskey. Today, Vladivostok would be the centre of the American Far Eastern colonies, and the Cold War would never happened.

 

[Snorrius]

You're absolutely right buddy, and that is why I have always thought Russians shouldn't have fought against being ruled by culturally superior nation Germany. You'd be driving BMW instead of Lada by now

The problem is that national-socialist Germany was already culturally on par with international-socialist Soviet Union. It is just one branch of progressivism which tried to show its supremacy over the alliance of two other progressivist branches of liberalism and socialism. And progressivism is not cultural, it is, as Carlyle would put it, the phosphorescence of decaying civilization. It is remnantcultural -- here is a good word which I came up with!

And driving BMWs is actually can be done without Germans conquering all over the place. We drive BMWs by now . Offer something better, we will think about it.

 

[HannibalBarka]

The problem is that national-socialist Germany was already culturally on par with international-socialist Soviet Union. It is just one branch of progressivism which tried to show its supremacy over the alliance of two other progressivist branches of liberalism and socialism. And progressivism is not cultural, it is, as Carlyle would put it, the phosphorescence of decaying civilization. It is remnantcultural -- here is a good word which I came up with!

And driving BMWs is actually can be done without Germans conquering all over the place. We drive BMWs by now . Offer something better, we will think about it.

Well Africans do drive BMWs as well

As long as Germany sells you BMW and you sell them crude gas, I know who is having cultural superiority

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Not sure it'd do any good unfortunately.

I think you're right.

Are you an enlightened European/American looking for new lands to occupy and peoples to enlighten? Then it is not an attractive option, it is your moral duty.

No that's not what I was going for. My question was more along the lines of : When is it morally necessary to intervene to stop wholesale slaughter?

It has been done before and in certain circumstances it should be done again. But of course every intervention is just cover for the corporatenazimachine to take and pillage the resources of all other lands in the name of democracy. Of course.

 

[Tahuti]

So by culturally superior you are referring to Belgium? "Hands! Hands for everyone!"

Have you ever been to Belgium? As a (Northern) Dutchman, I will say that Flanders and Southern Brabant are the cultural heartland of the whole Netherlands.

 

[Ajidica]

Have you ever been to Belgium? As a (Northern) Dutchman, I will say that Flanders and Southern Brabant are the cultural heartland of the whole Netherlands.

I was more referring to their colonial history in Africa which consists in large parts either extreme brutality (Congo Free State), working in bad faith (taking the staplers and paper clips with them as the pulled out of the Congo on grounds it was Belgian state property), or supporting secession to protect Belgian mining interests (Katanga, which among other events prompted the Congo Crisis and the UN's first offensive peacekeeping mission).
There is also the sending in of paratroopers during Operation Dragon Rouge and the Shaba I and II invasions of Zaire.

 

[Tahuti]

I was more referring to their colonial history in Africa which consists in large parts either extreme brutality (Congo Free State), working in bad faith (taking the staplers and paper clips with them as the pulled out of the Congo on grounds it was Belgian state property), or supporting secession to protect Belgian mining interests (Katanga, which among other events prompted the Congo Crisis and the UN's first offensive peacekeeping mission).
There is also the sending in of paratroopers during Operation Dragon Rouge and the Shaba I and II invasions of Zaire.

See, that's why Belgium needs to be part of the Netherlands.

 

[Ajidica]

Ah, right. My memory of that region's geography is more or less limited to "windmills, tulips, Amsterdam, invaded by the Germans".

 

[gozpel]

There is also the Warring King Syndrome in Africa.

In the 1990'ies Sweden granted either Ruanda or Luanda, something like that 50 million crowns to preserve the forests. Don't know the exchange rate right now, but all in all a great idea was displaced.

But the frigging president of whatever country it was, to buy a new , no 7 Mercedes, one for every day of the week. It was on the news in the late 90'ies.

 

[El_Machinae]

There's actually reasonable evidence that Blue Helmets in a region reduces the total violence in a region, and increases the rate at which conflicted regions return to peace. We tend not to realize this, because only the bad news gets the press. I know there's this paroxysm response to the idea of the UN doing something, but it's really the only international mechanism we have. It's also deliberately neutered. ("The thing we neuter intentionally is ineffective!!! " )

Secondly, we intentionally allow our international corporations to maintain (and even encourage) the cultures of corruption in regions we're harvesting for either natural resources or low-wage labour. These corporations are actually also subject to our laws. We wring our hands and say "oh, go be evil, if you wanna". It's a deliberate choice to look the other way.

Tweets on these fronts will help. Yelling at Boko Haram does nothing. We could actually really use your social media help.

 

[aelf]

I know there's this paroxysm response to the idea of the UN doing something, but it's really the only international mechanism we have. It's also deliberately neutered. ("The thing we neuter intentionally is ineffective!!! :argh

Americans are known to be a bit dumb for a reason.

I think the leaders know exactly what they're doing. But their right-wing following, I'm not so sure.

 

[LoneRebel]

The problem is that popular support as well as democracy does not work in Africa as experience shows. To bring law & order into this region the only viable solutions either right dictatorship, kingdomship or, the best one, colonialism by culturally superior nation.

or, the best one, colonialism by culturally superior nation.

colonialism by culturally superior nation.

This is the kind of thing we're told (by the likes of Russia Today) that Americans or Europeans (meaning Western Europeans) would say. Not so different after all, eh?

Unless you were making some sarcastic commentary on American and (Western) European colonialism, but even then, we all know that Russia did the same in its own little corner of Eurasia anyway.