Upcomming patch ruining the game?

[dh_epic]

Would you say the fact the horses were vissible in the first place was an omission on their part? At the start of the game I wondered why you could see the horses as well, but I figured that's how they wanted it, so I used it to my advantage.

I'd say it was an omission.

- You can't see if you're near copper or iron, so going for an axe or sword rush is a gamble.
- Religion is a gamble, since you can miss founding one by a single turn.
- Pottery has less of a payoff than religion or axe-rushing, but it's less risky.

But horses. Horses you can actually see. And a horse rush nearly guarantees a big reward in taking an enemy capital. low risk + high reward = ideal choice.

Being able to see horses meant that the horseback riding branch was overpowered compared to the other branches. Why else would this be your favorite strategy? It was one of mine as well. And thankfully it's gone, because it only takes one overpowered branch to make all the other branches pointless.

(This is also besides a serious exploit. You could move your settler in 4000 BC and build on horses. This could allow you to start producing chariots by the 10th turn of the game, if you start with hunting or agriculture. An exploit I never used, but was starting to catch on.)

 

[Astax]

Its my favorite cause I like it not cause it pwns :/ You cant take city with horses anyway. Well unless your opponent sucks. Its just what I use to harass and react :/ I plan the horses to be in my second or third city, I liek thinking ahead. Also I dont use chariots except for few games where I used immortal because it was FFA and the two guys clearly were buddies... when A guy says yeah to all for no apparent reason it smells fishy to me :/

 

[DaemonDivinity]

Wow the mods are swarming this place. Well, for my $0.02, there's a lot of anger going around which is really out of place. My reaction was initially the same to the horse issues, but it actually makes sense. Basically, if something didn't affect where you settled in the first place, it shouldn't be visible. Frankly getting all bent out of shape cause someone disagrees is just showing yourself to be a self-righteous... *looks around*... well I can't finish that or the mods will beat me so yeah, you get the clue. Early agression should be dangerous, not the easy way to victory.

Basically, if you ask me, only those resources usable early on should be visible. Yes, that includes the veggies and the like.

Though realistically, I think they start us too primitive. By 4000 BC, every tribe represented was already neolithic, thus I really don't see the point of hunting, agriculture, and animal husbandry as researched techs. Bronze Working and Iron Working came from the early Egyptians, Hittites, Aenians, and Sumerians well before 1000 BC, in some cases Bronze Working by 4000 BC.

But you know what? It's their game. The tweaks are rather minor at the moment, which is good. This isn't a cataclysmic rebalance by any measure. Just cross your fingers and hope it stays that way. I mean, can't really imagine someone who designs Civ to make the same mistakes with patches and adjustments as ... say... Cryptic.

 

[dh_epic]

Well before the patch finally comes, you should try working with just your capitol for a while.

Stage 1: The Choke

Hook up horses ASAP and put out one or two chariots to scope out the enemy territory. See what their workers are up to, and see which city is poorly defended. Three chariots, if they wait for the right moment, can probably steal two workers, and take out the AI's new settlements, cornering him to just his capital.

You should probably raze his satellite cities, since they'll just cost you maintainance... unless you want to keep one, just to keep the pressure on him. Or because it's a holy city. Holy cities generate good money.

Stage 2: The Build-Up

Once you have him down to just his capitol, you'll probably be ready to just start building horse archers. It doesn't matter if your opponent is skilled. They may have bronzeworking, but he'll be stuck with archers since your chariot rush would prevent him from hooking up copper. It's only if he knew about the chariots ahead of time that he might be able to stop you.

You might want to build your own second city finally, but slowly, since your military will take up a lot of maintainance cost. It's not a bad idea to just wait for a barbarian to build a city, and take that. No settler required, and you get free gold. This moment is about keeping your boot on the enemy's throat while you grow stronger.

Stage 3: The Kill

Taking the enemy capital will be hard, but it's usually a combination of preparation and opportunity. The AI may end up with something ridiculous like 6 or 7 archers in the city, meaning that you might need 10-12 horses and chariots.

But if you keep the horses dancing around, eventually they will launch one or two archers at you in a failed attack. They may even send out two archers with a settler, giving you another free worker. The XP is also valuable -- and medic promotions are very important.

I took out two AIs in their cradle at monarch level, with 10 horse archers running back and forth. The AI didn't have a chance. All before 0 BC.


The strategy does pwn.

But what pwns even more is if you move your opening settler on top of the horses in the first turn. You'll see. It's godly.

 

[Mythrl]

Personally I can see the logic to an extent. By that logic though all resources should be hidden until the tech that allows one to take advantage of them is researched. This goes as much for food, luxury and wonder resources as for military resources. Having this approach only exist for military ones is just plain silly.

 

[MRM]

Hey man that little advantage is all a religion whore has

Yeah itas ture u discover the tech but its eitehr striaght up the bronzeworking, straight up religion or you get the otehr worker techs. This change only benefits one of the strategies but I had thought them all equal.

As far as I can see it the religion strategy is a bit overpowered now. You just have to look in the modding section. There are some fan made civs already. Nearly all of them starts with mysticism. Guess why ! I brings you huge profit. So why not giving other strategies other benifits, like discovering importen ressources first ? I think that is fair.

And, as other point it out, it makes sence. Imagine a civ 4000 BC that don't know anything about Animal Husbandry. At best they can hunt the horses and use them as food. But they can hunt rabbits or deers as well, it makes no difference for them. So horses are nothing special for them, and in that sence, they don't "see" them as a special ressource. Same could IMO be said about wheat. That would only be one of many other food sources they find, nothing special. As long as you can not cultivate it to get a greater benifit from the wheat

 

[Lord Chambers]

I seriously can't believe those bastards are trying to fix the game. The effrontery I say. The effrontery!

Moderator Action: And how may one know these changes are not for the better, if you had not played the game? You can disagree all you want, but do so in a way which reflects the forum rules. Calling people bastards goes against that exactly. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

This was pretty clearly a joke at the OPs expense. He's not seriously calling the developers bastards, for doing so would be absurd.

 

[Heroes]

I'd like to see all resources hidden until the required tech to gather them is researched. Currently, we can pick our city locations based on resources that our civ wouldn't know anything about; it could also be the case that the civ wouldn't even know the resource is there. How do you know a tile can produce spices if you don't know what spices are? It's stupid to show a luxury that says 'this requires calendar.' What the hell is calendar and therefore what would this resource gain me? Can I even therefore know this resource is present?

We would still know where these resources are likely to occur (from past games) and can build our cities accordingly, but this would prevent people from running a settler across the continent to grab some mid-game strategic resources or otherwise placing their cities in all the most optimal places.

This game allows for people to immerse themselves in their chosen leader and civ progress. Would it really be so bad for the game to make all the resources realistically hidden? This should even prevent the AI from expanding based on resources (ie: running between your cultural borders to steal something useful on the other side/in the middle - though the culture flips are nice. ).

Jeremy.

If nobody can see any resource when he doesn't have the corresponding tech, that's balanced, no problem. However, like civ 3, AI still knows where is every resource from the beginning! Why not get rid of this funny imbalance?

 

[Ryozo]

Why are people getting so butt sore? Don't like something? Mod it.

 

[rjjb]

However, like civ 3, AI still knows where is every resource from the beginning! Why not get rid of this funny imbalance?

The AI shouldn't know anything more about the world initially than players do. That they get crazy bonuses in the higher levels should suffice.

Why are people getting so butt sore? Don't like something? Mod it.

Hard to mod the game and play with random people online, no? It would have to be a TC of sorts installed by whatever group of people you intend to play with. Random changes don't work for MP folk, so an ideal base needs to be set by Firaxis. Of course, what the ideal base is in the first place is entirely up to them. Knowing that won't stop all the opinions though, but if even half of the good ones get implemented in a patch the game will be better.

Jeremy.

 

[pris]

no worries

My beef stock is cooking good

and I have been reading the book at work all week

Just got to dl the tips (no printer) and read them at work next week

This weeks one hour of gametime and im almost finished the tutorial

 

[RIT Beast]

This was pretty clearly a joke at the OPs expense. He's not seriously calling the developers bastards, for doing so would be absurd.

Glad somebody caught it. I suppose a sarcasm tag might've helped, but I thought my use of effrontery would be enough to mitigate any offense. Sincerest apologies to the moderator.

 

[RoddyVR]

my first reaction when i read the patch note thing, was "oh my god... the horses are disappearing".
then i realized that this is a good thing. horses shouldnt be visible from day one, just like iron and copper, for the same reasons.

i do NOT agree that rice, wheat and so on should be made same way. a civilization that doesnt know how to handle horses wouldnt care that they're there, so we shouldnt see them.
but they would care if there's a huge field with wild growing wheat or rice.
while they dont have the technology to farm the stuff to the max, they CAN eat it, just like they can eat berries and mushrooms and so on.

the bonuses that give small amounts of food before they are worked make sense to me, they should be there to start with. even before you know how to build a banana plantation, you can see the wild banana trees and get the fruit down and eat them.
same with pigs and sheep and gems (easy to catch food, or shiny rocks that sparkle)
things like spice and dye, i'm not so sure that they should be visible from start.
i dont realy know what spices are made from, so i'm not sure here. i dont realy see why spices should add a commerce point to a tile before you know how ot make spices. same for silk (infested with worms/caterpillars is NOT a commerce bonus untill you know how to use the silk)

so basicaly, i think that:
strategic resourses should be hidden till you know the tech.
late commerce/happy bonuses should be hidden till you know the tech.
all food bonuses (early and late) should be visible from start.
gold, silver and gems i'm not 100% sure of, but there have to be early happy resourses so either make them show up with mining or show them from start. either way makes sense to me.

 

[onedreamer]

This is as it should be. It isn't that you've never noticed them - it's that you didn't know how to herd, tame, train, vet and ride them.

It isn't as if it's terribly difficult to research AH before your second city is ready to place anyway.

but it's already like this. Horses are there, you can see them, but you can't really take advantage from them unless you researched Animal Husbandry. Exactly what you described in your statement. Hiding them instead is another thing, it goes against what you yourself stated. The same goes for a very long list of other animals. Hence I seriously doubt this change is done for realism. I fail to guess for any good reason for this change.

 

[onedreamer]

I think it's a great change. It adds more strategy to the game. You couldn't see horses right away in civ3 either and it definitely adds more strategy to the early game.

it's exactly the contrary, it takes away strategy from the game, why doesn't the majority of players understand it ?

case 1: horses appear on the map from the beginning. I, the player, will take strategic decisions to take advantage of them, such as researching animal husbandry and making a worker to build a pasture.

case 2: horses don't appear on the map from the beginning. I, the player, cannot take any strategic decisions about those horses because I don't know if they are there or not. I will then gamble and hope for them being there and research animal husbandry. This is either a gamble or a predetermined path in order to know if you have horses or not, whatever you want to call it, just don't call it strategy because it really has nothing to deal with it.

 

[mweather]

If horses are visible from the start, so should all other strategic resources. Please explain, from a gameplay perspective, why iron and copper should be hidden, but horses shouldn't be.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

it's exactly the contrary, it takes away strategy from the game, why doesn't the majority of players understand it ?

case 1: horses appear on the map from the beginning. I, the player, will take strategic decisions to take advantage of them, such as researching animal husbandry and making a worker to build a pasture.

case 2: horses don't appear on the map from the beginning. I, the player, cannot take any strategic decisions about those horses because I don't know if they are there or not. I will then gamble and hope for them being there and research animal husbandry. This is either a gamble or a predetermined path in order to know if you have horses or not, whatever you want to call it, just don't call it strategy because it really has nothing to deal with it.

actually case2: horses don't appear on the map, but I know they Might be there so I make a decision...beeline to AH so I can try and get them by placing my city near them and risk them not being present, or work on other techs first and risk losing horses that I Could have gotten.

Perfectly reasonable,

And I think for the Commerce bonus resources (Spices/dyes, I think the tech merely allows you to cultivate them on a large scale (ie the bonus goes beyond one city) so I would say they are the same as the grain, rice, Pigs, Bananas example.

 

[Kikimalaka]

The use of the word "effrontery" is an obvious clue that RIT Beast is just being silly!

I seriously can't believe those bastards are trying to fix the game. The effrontery I say. The effrontery!

Moderator Action: And how may one know these changes are not for the better, if you had not played the game? You can disagree all you want, but do so in a way which reflects the forum rules. Calling people bastards goes against that exactly. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Shillen]

case 1: horses appear on the map from the beginning. I, the player, will take strategic decisions to take advantage of them, such as researching animal husbandry and making a worker to build a pasture.

I'm kind of echoing what Krikkitone said. But you're looking at it wrong. If you can see the horses before you have the tech then it's a no-brainer decision to go for animal husbandry. That's eliminating decision making when one decision is obviously the best one to make. Meanwhile if you can't see them then you really have to make a decision. Do I go for animal husbandry and risk finding out there are no horses or take the safe path and research something else?

 

[jdurg]

As someone had already mentioned earlier in the thread, this decision makes a LOT of sense. What the change is doing is simulating the fact that the early settlers may have seen the horses there, but didn't care one iota about them since they didn't know what to do with them. The same can be said about copper, iron, or any of the other strategic resources. Once they developed the technology to take advantage of those resources, then they began to care. What the images on the map are doing is showing which resources your civilization currently cares about. If you have the technology to make use of the resource, which means that you now care about the resource, it will show up on the map for you.