Upgrade for scouts

[CYZ]

Nice if you could add it to the OP

I was thinking it would not be like regular Air Unit (based in a city) but more like the Helicopter unit. Perhaps Balloons could be upgraded to Helicopters eventually. As they would became available quite early (by Physics).

"Ranged Combat only (Cannot be melee attacked by enemy units), Ranged strength 5."

This was the Balloon combat ability idea by me and Pouakai in his compilation thread. Yes, melee units cannot attack them but can enter the tile because Balloons 100% retreat chance when attacked by melee units (love your idea).





I like this idea as well. They could explore quite far away from your empire if based in allied city state cities. Though this would require that you would have quite many of them to get a far. Kind of like step by step. Recon Run is a nice idea.





I was thinking the Great Explorer improvement would be the Cartographer building (list of cartographers), for example. Will have to think about the tile Yields. Perhaps giving small amount of gold, science and generating Exploration points (which would count for new GEX to born). Perhaps it could have alot of movement, large sight radius, a high retreat chance, double yields from ancient ruins, finding natural wonders and pillaging barbarian camps. Also giving +1 line of sight to frindly units in adjacent tiles...

Hmmm... I'm not really convinced about the GEX. It seems like taking it a bit too far. It's never going to be as usefull as the other GP I think. Exploration is most important early on, while GP usually come a bit later. Perhaps the improvement could have a very large sight radius of it's own, so you can use it to see deep into enemy territory.

As for the balloon. I like both ideas equally, but I'm going for the citybased one, otherwise it's too much a competition with explorers. This way they both have their own distinct way of exploring.

 

[CYZ]

Would anybody consider a more combat-oriented upgrade?

Go Scout --> Explorer just as here (more sight, stronger). But then upgrade to a Guerrilla, which would be a modern combat unit that can compete with Infantry (although weaker) and can still move freely across terrain without penalty.

Hmmm... possibly. But then it has a different function. A recon unit is just that, recon, not meant to attack. It's certainly a possibility. But I'd prefer a real recon unit unless it turns out fighter planes are better in any situation.

 

[Beefie]

I'd like to second Kurtbob's idea of the Spotter promotion to the later scout upgrades, maybe adjacent range units to some percentage exta damage?
This would keep the units usual into the later eras when most land will have been scouted already

 

[CYZ]

I'd like to second Kurtbob's idea of the Spotter promotion to the later scout upgrades, maybe adjacent range units to some percentage exta damage?
This would keep the units usual into the later eras when most land will have been scouted already

It's certainly an option for the recon unit. Still, don't you think just the fact they have 4 moves, 2 more sight than scouts and the ability to see through any obstacles give them a use?

I mean, it allows them to stay safe and still see far. In rough terrain, being able to scout the enemy is highly needed. Especially to make good use of your artillery.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Hmmm... possibly. But then it has a different function. A recon unit is just that, recon, not meant to attack. It's certainly a possibility. But I'd prefer a real recon unit unless it turns out fighter planes are better in any situation.

Yeah, but I'm not sure Recon has a strong use in the modern game.

How about as an alternative, a Ranger unit (as in something like the US Army Rangers)? They're recon-focused, but capable of standing up in a modern fight.

 

[CYZ]

Yeah, but I'm not sure Recon has a strong use in the modern game.

How about as an alternative, a Ranger unit (as in something like the US Army Rangers)? They're recon-focused, but capable of standing up in a modern fight.

Well, I'm not sure either. But with the proposed sight and movement abilities it will be a usefull spotter. Still, that seems useless when airplanes come around.

How about putting this recon unit in the early industrial, and putting either a guerilla or ranger unit in the early modern era?

 

[mintcandy]

Idea for experience gain for the units upgraded from Scouts.

1 XP for any turn that they clear at least one fog of war tile or 2 XP for any turn that they reveal new tiles.

Also, +50 percent experience from barbarian units, and no experience cap on barbarian units.

 

[awesome]

maybe expending a great explorer can map a fairly large area and can be done outside of your borders?

 

[Kurtbob]

Three upgrade lines I would consider:

Scout -> Explorer -> Recon -> Mechanized Inf.

Recon is more or less integrated in modern military units so Mech Inf. could be a nice end of the line since it can hold its own while keeping all the recon promotions.

Scout -> Auxillery -> Ranger (musket unit, think US War of Independence or German Jagers) -> Partisan -> Guerilla -> Commando / Special Forces

New light infantry unit tree. Site, terrain movement, and ambush type promotions.
MARDUK80: these types of units would fit your 'hide in the trees' promotion ideas better than the explorer unit IMO.

Scout -> Explorer -> Recon -> Commando / Special Forces

Start with exploration units and end the tree with a new combat oriented unit.

 

[CYZ]

Three upgrade lines I would consider:

Scout -> Explorer -> Recon -> Mechanized Inf.

Recon is more or less integrated in modern military units so Mech Inf. could be a nice end of the line since it can hold its own while keeping all the recon promotions.

Scout -> Auxillery -> Ranger (musket unit, think US War of Independence or German Jagers) -> Partisan -> Guerilla -> Commando / Special Forces

New light infantry unit tree. Site, terrain movement, and ambush type promotions.
MARDUK80: these types of units would fit your 'hide in the trees' promotion ideas better than the explorer unit IMO.

Scout -> Explorer -> Recon -> Commando / Special Forces

Start with exploration units and end the tree with a new combat oriented unit.

Nice job, that's three good possibilities. I'm in favor of the first. Having a free movement, big sight radius mech inf. seems great. This upgrade path is also the most simple which is always good IMO.

 

[MARDUK80]

maybe expending a great explorer can map a fairly large area and can be done outside of your borders?

Very good idea! Much like the Great Artist ‘Culture Bomb’ ability. Except GEX ‘Mapping’ ability would reveal random area from somewhere on the map (like maps from Ancient Ruins do). I believe there is potential for the Great Explorer (GEX) unit.

Great Explorer

Every explored hex counts as one point (like combat points for Great General) and when you have suffient amount of exploration points, the Great Explorer will appear to one of your cities.

Abilities: Gives Movement 3 and Ignores Terrain Cost. Has a large sight radius and gives+1 Line of Sight to friendly units in adjacent tiles. Ignores Zones of Control. A high retreat chance. Double yields (30 or 60 Gold) from finding new friendly City States. Double yield from Pillaging Barbarian Camps. Double yields from discovering new Natural Wonders. (A huge plus with the Spanish! )

Improvement: Cartographer Yields: Gold, Science and Exploration points which count for new GEX to spawn (EP’s works much like GG points)

I see GEX could potentially be the only Recon unit with Scout. Other units just would not be needed. Though the downside of GEX is that it doesn’t have any combat strength.

MARDUK80: these types of units would fit your 'hide in the trees' promotion ideas better than the explorer unit IMO. Scout -> Explorer -> Recon -> Commando / Special Forces. Start with exploration units and end the tree with a new combat oriented unit.

Awesome idea. Is there a possibility for new Recon unit in G&K ? I do not think they have released in on the all new units yet. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for this one.

 

[CYZ]

Very good idea! Much like the Great Artist ‘Culture Bomb’ ability. Except GEX ‘Mapping’ ability would reveal random area from somewhere on the map (like maps from Ancient Ruins do). I believe there is potential for the Great Explorer (GEX) unit.

Great Explorer

Every explored hex counts as one point (like combat points for Great General) and when you have suffient amount of exploration points, the Great Explorer will appear to one of your cities.

Abilities: Gives Movement 3 and Ignores Terrain Cost. Has a large sight radius and gives+1 Line of Sight to friendly units in adjacent tiles. Ignores Zones of Control. A high retreat chance. Double yields (30 or 60 Gold) from finding new friendly City States. Double yield from Pillaging Barbarian Camps. Double yields from discovering new Natural Wonders. (A huge plus with the Spanish! )

Improvement: Cartographer Yields: Gold, Science and Exploration points which count for new GEX to spawn (EP’s works much like GG points)

I see GEX could potentially be the only Recon unit with Scout. Other units just would not be needed. Though the downside of GEX is that it doesn’t have any combat strength.




Awesome idea. Is there a possibility for new Recon unit in G&K ? I do not think they have released in on the all new units yet. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for this one.

I think your GEX idea is very good! The way points are accumelated, the speed and retreat chance. The double yields from NW, ruins and CS.

Two things I would change though: First, the cartographer I disagree with. the GEX falls in the line of the GG, thus the improvement should have no yield. How about an outpost that gives you sight in a very large radius? (thus allowing you to see deep into enemy territory).

Second, I think the bonus the GEX should give to adjacent units is +2 sight. That way it makes sense to use them in an army or send them with a scout/explorer/recon unit.


As for the commando. I think it should be a unit with increased movement, a retreat chance and the ability to plunder without movement cost. It can really be used to try and cause damage behind enemy lines. And it should paradrop ofcourse. Though it'd be a bit too expensive and weak to function well in direct warfare.

 

[SuperWaffle247]

In a mod/pipe dream I'm working on Scouts can upgrade into a light cavalry line, which eventually becomes WW1/2 era armored cars and then Humvee-style recon. I figure they slot between infantry and cavalry/tanks in cost, power, and longevity, and either have extra move or sight. Not sure yet. I might just make them a cheaper/quicker bulilding and non-resource consuming alternative to cavalry/armor.

 

[awesome]

How about an outpost that gives you sight in a very large radius? (thus allowing you to see deep into enemy territory).

that's pretty much what i was thinking when i made my earlier post, though i wasn't specifically thinking of a tile improvement. but if we were going to have an imporvement, it would definitely have to be an outpost, since you'll probably have most of the land near your cities explored already and the major benefit of the great explorer is, as you said, mapping enemy territory. just for the sake of having numbers, i'm thinking it could map a radius somewhere between 2 and 3 times the great explorer's sight.

also, to combine a couple ideas from this thread, maybe we can let the great explorer (or nearby units) see through obstructions like you mentioned for the recon earlier, then just have the scout upgrade to an explorer, which upgrades to a mech infantry. you won't be mapping too much in the industrial era, so we don't really need the extra unit, especially if we want to upgrade it to mechs.

 

[Kurtbob]

also, to combine a couple ideas from this thread, maybe we can let the great explorer (or nearby units) see through obstructions like you mentioned for the recon earlier, then just have the scout upgrade to an explorer, which upgrades to a mech infantry. you won't be mapping too much in the industrial era, so we don't really need the extra unit, especially if we want to upgrade it to mechs.

This makes sense to me. I still like my 'spotting' ability idea for the recon unit, but a promotion can do the same job (scouts spotting for catapults and archers...too farfetched?)

Scout -> Explorer -> Mech. Inf.

Possible new scouting promotions?
Spotting -> increased bombardment damage to units within line of sight
Cunning -> +25% combat vs. barbarians
Stealth / Light Footed-> Ignores ZOC
Subtrefuge -> Pillaging doesn't use movement points.

I also like the idea for the GEX with the ability to create an Outpost. It would be pretty powerful with its sight bonus, but what do you think of an extra ablity? Say, the ability to bombard? Overkill?

 

[Kurtbob]

In a mod/pipe dream I'm working on Scouts can upgrade into a light cavalry line, which eventually becomes WW1/2 era armored cars and then Humvee-style recon. I figure they slot between infantry and cavalry/tanks in cost, power, and longevity, and either have extra move or sight. Not sure yet. I might just make them a cheaper/quicker bulilding and non-resource consuming alternative to cavalry/armor.

See my light infantry tree. My own pipedream

 

[SuperWaffle247]

See my light infantry tree. My own pipedream

I like it alot. I like having special forces at the modern end, but (until reading your work at least) I didn't really know what to do with it in medieval and classical eras.

 

[CYZ]

Let's see. So the GEX has a special ability that will map a very large area. And an improvement that shows you an smaller area permanently (no offense bonus, this is for the citadel).

Then we let the explorer upgrade into mech inf. hmmm... Isn't that a bit of a big gap?

So for now:
Scout as it is
Explorer: +1 move, may see through any obstacles and higher strength.

Great explorer.
Gain GEX points for every previously unknown hex explored. Gex has 3 moves, pretty high sight range and a 95% retreat chance when attacked. It can use it's ability to map a very large area. It can build the outpost improvement that allows you permanent sight in a decent radius.

 

[Kurtbob]

Let's see. So the GEX has a special ability that will map a very large area. And an improvement that shows you an smaller area permanently (no offense bonus, this is for the citadel).

Then we let the explorer upgrade into mech inf. hmmm... Isn't that a bit of a big gap?

So for now:
Scout as it is
Explorer: +1 move, may see through any obstacles and higher strength.

Great explorer.
Gain GEX points for every previously unknown hex explored. Gex has 3 moves, pretty high sight range and a 95% retreat chance when attacked. It can use it's ability to map a very large area. It can build the outpost improvement that allows you permanent sight in a decent radius.

No offensive capability for the outpost makes sense. I'm not exactly sure how the new spy system will work, but perhaps the outpost could do something to increase the time it takes for enemy spies to infiltrate cities within its sight range?

The gap between scout and explorer (ancient-classical-medieval-renaissance) is just as long as the gap between explorer and mech (renaissance-industrial-modern). Its better than nothing. Again, I would only like additional scouting units if they do some interesting stuff (more than just super sight).

This is what I would like to see:
Explorer: +1 move, may see through any obstacles. +50% vs Barbarians. Combat 10 (it has to fight with barbarian pikemen). Buildable at Navigation ( I would like it at Astronomy, but then it would contend with Caravels).

Explorers would also be interesting if they could build forts (I'm thinking the Portugeuse here) to protect newly discovered lands. Not sure if its really usefull to build forts in unclaimed land though. This is where the Conquistadore's abilty to found cities would be nice. Explore and settle. Though, I can only imagine the impact of upgrading scouts into city founding explorers.

 

[MARDUK80]

So for now:
Scout as it is
Explorer: +1 move, may see through any obstacles and higher strength.

Great explorer.
Gain GEX points for every previously unknown hex explored. Gex has 3 moves, pretty high sight range and a 95% retreat chance when attacked. It can use it's ability to map a very large area. It can build the outpost improvement that allows you permanent sight in a decent radius.

Let's not forget the Balloon!

My proposal:

Scout (as it is) (Early eras) -> Great Explorer (Any era) -> Balloon (Medieval/Renaissance) -> Commando (Guerilla unit) (After Renaissance)

Excellent idea for the Outpost.

I also like the idea for the GEX with the ability to create an Outpost. It would be pretty powerful with its sight bonus, but what do you think of an extra ablity? Say, the ability to bombard? Overkill?

Would be cool, but perhaps overkill. I'd say Citadel/Fort/Outpost + Siege units is very strong defense line and sufficient.

No offensive capability for the outpost makes sense. I'm not exactly sure how the new spy system will work, but perhaps the outpost could do something to increase the time it takes for enemy spies to infiltrate cities within its sight range?

I definitely see the possibility of Outposts benefiting from the Espionage system. Very good idea.


After the suggestions, the improved GEX idea:


Great Explorer

Every previously unknown hex explored counts for GEX points (like combat points for Great General) and when you have suffient amount of exploration points, the Great Explorer will appear to one of your cities.

Abilities: Movement 3 and Ignores Terrain Cost. Ignores Zones of Control. Has a large sight radius and gives +2 Line of Sight to friendly units in adjacent tiles. 95% retreat chance when attacked. Double yields (30 or 60 Gold) from finding new friendly City States. Double yield from Pillaging (unoccupied) Barbarian Camps. Double yields from discovering new Natural Wonders. (A huge plus with the Spanish! )

Special Ability: Mapping. Reveals large random area from somewhere on the map (like maps from Ancient Ruins do, but much larger).

Improvement: Outpost. Allows you permanent sight in a decent radius. *Possible second effect; Increases the time it takes for enemy spies to infiltrate cities within its sight range*


@ CYZ : Could you add GEX to the OP as well?

Explorers would also be interesting if they could build forts (I'm thinking the Portugeuse here) to protect newly discovered lands. Not sure if its really usefull to build forts in unclaimed land though. This is where the Conquistadore's abilty to found cities would be nice. Explore and settle. Though, I can only imagine the impact of upgrading scouts into city founding explorers.

This is definitely something that could be one of the Portugal's uniques, ability or unique recon unit. Perhaps also having double rate of gaining Exploration Points (every previously unknown hex explored counts for GEX points - Portugal gets a double amount)

Heh, this thread with Balloons, GEX and Explorers turned out to be most exciting. Even more than many of the confirmed features in G&K. I am really hoping these ideas would be something that the Dev team would be interested to build on!