Upgrade for scouts

[CYZ]

I think what a modern recon unit really needs to gain to work well is not increased movement and sight but rather some kind of stealth.

It seems to me by the time explorers come on line the entire world is not only explored, but barring a special map type is pretty much all settled, which makes them not really explorers at all.

I'd even say that recon units in the early game are a fundamentally different unit type than recon units in the late game, so there's no particular reason for one to progress into the other. Early game recon units are explorers, late game recon units are more like spies.

I'm strongly against stealth. I just don't see it working for land units. But if you have a specific suggestion, convince me

I disagree that most of the map is explored when explorers come around. This will only be the case with small pangea-like maps. Or perhaps larger pangea maps if you invested heavily in scouts. On most maps there will be entire continents and such that you have not be able to reach untill that moment. And on standard and larger pangeas there will likely still be undiscovered parts.

I don't think recon units should be spies. Though their high sight range later on will allow you to look deeply in enemy territory, but they will not go unnoticed.

 

[shaglio]

I think a very simple solution to the Scout problem is twofold:

1) Remove the 30 max-experience cap vs. barbarians.
2) Don’t make them go obsolete.

I’ve upgraded Scouts down both the Scouting and Survivalism paths. Scouting (as the name implies) is more useful for the Scouts primary function of surveilance, however they wind up being a little bit on the squishy side so they might not live long enough to gain all 3 promotions. Taking Survivalism first makes them hardier and lets them live longer to then enjoy the Scouting line, but you can only go 2 promotions deep before reaching the 30 experience cap. So removing the cap for Scouts (and Scouts only) will help them to be more useful since they typically only get attacked by (or attack if your bold enough) barbarians and not rival AI civs.

And not making them go obsolete helps out in case your Scout does perish. You can then start over from scratch rather then build, for instance, a military-minded Lancer to send into enemy territory and get the AI’s hackles up.

 

[Deggial]

I'm strongly against stealth. I just don't see it working for land units. But if you have a specific suggestion, convince me

As *I* like the stealth idea , let me try to convince you:
Stealth units are invisible only in war times and only to the civ, they are in war with.

- If you are in peace, there will be no problem, when other civs move their units around. There would be no "hint" towards a hidden unit by an impossible movement target, as they are visible anyway. (There is no real necessity in this rule, but it makes things easier for human players.)
- If you are in war, stealth units are invisible for player you are in war with. The opposing player may move his units freely around and *no* "impassable" indicator will show a stealth unit's position.
- Stealth units are revealed, if:

• the player places an own unit on an adjacent hex. Maybe, to make stealth units less overpowered, they could be made visible in a two hex range!

• the player moves his unit directly onto the stealth unit's hex or the hex is part of a movement path. In this case, the movement will stop at the adjacent hex in front of the stealth unit and the moving player may decide to attack it with a high attacking bonus. (The bonus is needed to prevent players from spaming stealth units and flooding the enemy's territory.)

- Civilian units will stop their movement, too. Obviously, they will not be allowed to attack and may die the next turn. Rule of thump: "Don't move around your Great merchant without cover, when in war!"

I still don't know, whether or not you would like such a game mechanic. But I think, it should work. Or did I miss anything obvious?

 

[CYZ]

As *I* like the stealth idea , let me try to convince you:
Stealth units are invisible only in war times and only to the civ, they are in war with.

- If you are in peace, there will be no problem, when other civs move their units around. There would be no "hint" towards a hidden unit by an impossible movement target, as they are visible anyway. (There is no real necessity in this rule, but it makes things easier for human players.)
- If you are in war, stealth units are invisible for player you are in war with. The opposing player may move his units freely around and *no* "impassable" indicator will show a stealth unit's position.
- Stealth units are revealed, if:

• the player places an own unit on an adjacent hex. Maybe, to make stealth units less overpowered, they could be made visible in a two hex range!

• the player moves his unit directly onto the stealth unit's hex or the hex is part of a movement path. In this case, the movement will stop at the adjacent hex in front of the stealth unit and the moving player may decide to attack it with a high attacking bonus. (The bonus is needed to prevent players from spaming stealth units and flooding the enemy's territory.)

- Civilian units will stop their movement, too. Obviously, they will not be allowed to attack and may die the next turn. Rule of thump: "Don't move around your Great merchant without cover, when in war!"

I still don't know, whether or not you would like such a game mechanic. But I think, it should work. Or did I miss anything obvious?

It could work very well. It could be alot of fun for the offending player.

But the downsides are big IMO.

It is fairly complicated to implement. Both to develop it and to balance it and especially for the AI to use it properly or defend against it.

In fact, the human will have a huge advantage over the AI. The AI will have a big problem defending against it properly and most likely not use it well either.

Then there's defending against it. I really dont want to spend extra time patrolling all my borders all the time during a war. But if I don't, someone will steal my workers and GP and pillage my luxuries and strategic resources. In fact, the resources involved in keeping all border clear from stealth units would be fairly high. It does not seem better for gameplay nor better for a fun experience.

But, that is my opinion, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[mintcandy]

But the downsides are big IMO.

Then there's defending against it. I really dont want to spend extra time patrolling all my borders all the time during a war. But if I don't, someone will steal my workers and GP and pillage my luxuries and strategic resources. In fact, the resources involved in keeping all border clear from stealth units would be fairly high. It does not seem better for gameplay nor better for a fun experience.

I'm going to second this opinion.

Late game turns in Civ V are already onerous due to the 1upt and the inability to move more than one unit at a time.

Okay, maybe the AI's ability to use such stealth units will be so bad as to not even be noticeable in a single player game, but the added amount of time to defend all civilian units will be hugely noticeable in a multiplayer game where the opponents DO know how to effectively use stealth units.

 

[Atwork]

Recon Upgrade Path:

Scout-->Skirmisher-->Mounted Skirmisher-->Motorized Recon-->Armored Recon-->Recon Satellite

Scout
combat:4
move:2
ignore terrain


Skirmisher
Available w/ Construction
combat:6
move:3
ignore terrain


Mounted Skirmisher
Available w/ Gunpowder?
combat:9
move:4
ignore terrain & +25% versus Cannon
does not require horses.


Motorized Recon pictured as a Jeep.
Available w/ Combustion
combat:15
move:4
ignore terrain & +1 sight & +25% versus Artillery
does not require oil.


Armored Recon pictured as a Humvee.
Available w/ Lasers
combat:32
move:4
ignore terrain & +1 sight & +25% healing for adjacent units.
does not require oil.


Recon Satellite
Available w/ Satellites (National Wonder)
All land and sea units gain +2 sight.

 

[nerull360]

I very much like the idea of expanding scouts, they're the only dead end path.
I know there's too much stuff too cram it all in during dev, but really 1 scout for the entirety of history?

The balloon is a good idea even if just for novelty, if anyone can actually implement it.

As far as the above suggestion, that could work too. Except the recon satellite would be still be useful at just +1 sight.
Also the healing for the humvee could be argued I guess, but personally I don't think of scouts doubling as medics.

 

[SMA333M]

An Explorer, as upgrade for Scout, would be great.

Also I was thinking that there should be a way to see the territorry + units from another civilization, without going there, like a stealth Drone or an option to do Satellite Scan in a certain area (large area)... for late game wars.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

2. Balloon
A new unit, the first flying unit in the game. It can't attack and is always killed by any interception from AA or other air units. It does have a long range recon ability. This way it can be used to scout into the territory of other civs or just keep a check on your surroundings. It can also be used for exploration by basing it in far away CS. Every time it does a recon flight it has a small chance to totally disappear. This unit comes in the early rennaisance.

While the explorer is able to explore uncharted territory anywhere on the globe, it's sight radius is not so big to make it optimal for scouting out neighbouring civs. The balloon is perfect for this goal, as it has a large sight radius and can't be destroyed untill fighters/aa comes around. The balloon isn't very good at standard exploration because it needs a city to be based in and can't collect ruins.

Would fighters and/or bombers also gain a recon flight? I really wish they had it... Or, if they don't get it, then the balloon could upgrade to a spy plane/drone that has a higher evasion chance - otherwise your balloons lose a lot of their usefullness if they can be shredded by hostile planes in war time.

Also, would overflight recon within another civs borders be considered a hostile act, one that requires open borders? I'm torn on this...it would follow historical precedent, but would also greatly restrict your options.

4. Great Explorer
Like with GG points, you gain GEX point by discovering tiles that were previously undiscovered. The GEX has 3 moves, a very high sight radius and a very high retreat chance. It also ignores ZoC and gives adjacent units +2 sight. It also gets double yields from finding Natural Wonder, City States and barbarian camps. When it takes a ruin you get two ruin bonusses instead of just one. Like all GP it has two unique abilities:
* Mapping: This explores a very large radius around the GEX (15 tiles). The GEX is expended.
* Outpost: This improvement has no special yields but it has a sight radius of 7. It might also help with espionage in some way. The GEX is expended.

When focussing on exploring you will easily earn a GEX, it will help you explore more and recieve bigger rewards for it or allow you to keep eyes out in your territory.

I think that the mapping ability should gain a chance to discover a new strategic resource (one not previously on the map - not just uncovering a preexisting one) within the radius of the uncovered territory. This is reminiscent of the wild cat oil drillers and miners that operate around the world. I also think the mapping ability needs a buff b/c I can't see many people using it as-is.

 

[Peng Qi]

Would fighters and/or bombers also gain a recon flight? I really wish they had it... Or, if they don't get it, then the balloon could upgrade to a spy plane/drone that has a higher evasion chance - otherwise your balloons lose a lot of their usefullness if they can be shredded by hostile planes in war time.

Also, would overflight recon within another civs borders be considered a hostile act, one that requires open borders? I'm torn on this...it would follow historical precedent, but would also greatly restrict your options.

Fighters already automatically illuminate all tiles within 6 tiles of their base of operations.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Fighters already automatically illuminate all tiles within 6 tiles of their base of operations.

I meant to recon deep into enemy turf. Or any turn that's unrevealed, within their normal bombardment range. Like in, actually I think CIII and CIV could do this.

 

[SMA333M]

In Civ 3 you could ask spies to reveal enemy units... then you could see all units.

 

[CYZ]

I think a balloon with a recon ability and that actually comes before other air units or AA units would be very nice. It could later be upgraded into a spy plane and then a spy drone. These have higher chances of avoiding being shot down.

That way the balloon allows you to view enemy territory without the enemy being able to stop you, but once other air units come into play they'll die too often to be worthwhile.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

@CYZ

What did you think of my idea for giving a great explorer the ability to find new strategic resources with the mapping ability?

 

[awesome]

there was another thread about this some time ago where there were some pretty interesting ideas. one was that there should be a unit that can see through obstacles (like hills, etc). allowing a scout upgrade to enter rival territory without declaring war would work nicely, too.
there are a bunch of other possibilities that can be used, but basically, scout upgrades would need to offer some kind of advantage to building them that isn't already covered by other units. while the entire map may not be explored already by the time we'd get an explorer unit, it will probably be explored already by the time you'd get a commando, or something like that. someone mentioned stealth, which probably isn't very good for a generic unit, as opposed to maybe a unique unit, but there needs to be something. there are already units that don't require resources, so that can't be it.
also, i don't think we need a scouting balloon.

 

[Kwami]

I'd like to see a more amphibious Scout. Regular Scouts are great for exploring land and Triremes and Caravels are great for exploring water, but I often have trouble getting land-based Scouts onto new islands and continents without running into barbarian naval units that kill them fairly quickly. Sure, I could provide a naval escort, but that seems kind of silly.

Something like this:

1. Scouts can be upgraded to Explorers, etc. at different techs up through the Industrial Era. After the Industrial Era, there are no further Scout promotions and aircraft take their place. Maybe a Spy Plane in the Atomic Era and a Spy Drone in the Information Era. Scouts and Spy Planes are distinct unit lines and do not share promotions.

2. Scouts, etc. receive XP bonuses from Barracks, etc. Spy Planes work like other aircraft with regards to XP and bonuses.

3. Initial Scouts have the normal selection of promotions to choose from. Explorers, etc. come with new promotions (e.g. something analogous to War Canoes), faster movement, and better strength. Spy Planes, etc. have their own line of promotions (e.g. better operating range).

Thoughts?

 

[Rex_Mundi]

3. Initial Scouts have the normal selection of promotions to choose from. Explorers, etc. come with new promotions (e.g. something analogous to War Canoes), faster movement, and better strength. Spy Planes, etc. have their own line of promotions (e.g. better operating range).

Thoughts?

Have Explorers be available round the time of Caravals, give them the same promotions as Marines (Embarked defence and Vision, maybe only vision).
Give them 66% of the Muskets mans strength, the same way that the scout has 66% of a warriors strength.
Explorers should have the same ignore terrain penalty, maybe even 3 move. Scouts should be able to upgrade to them.

Explorers should be ideally suited to find and land on the unsetteled islands.