v 26, and above ALL Bugs/Crashes reporting thread

The farms are spreading irrigation only with agriculture tec, no other. I don't know if this is a bug or a mod of caveman. Cya.
 
Koshling said:
That path is clearly wrong, but I cannot reproduce it. When I load the game and select that stack it displays the correct path (and as I sweep the end point around it continues to display correct paths for all nearby target plots).

Does it reproduce for you from a fresh load of that save? If so do you have any BUG options that might be affecting things? (terrain damage is on for me, as is use AI pathing, not sure what else would influence it)
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Yes it does reproduce for me and I have neither of those options on.
 
Koshling said:
I've just fixed (not yet pushed to SVN) a bug that caused it to build property-mitigating units (healers in this case) when the property was already WAY out of control (there's not really much point in trying to fight it with units if it's so far out of control that you won't see any impact without building lots).

However, I can't find any evidence of a bug that causes it to build disease control units at city disease values already at or below 0, so if you can reproduce that I really need a savegame so I can step through the code concerned.

More widely (@Hydro mostly, but others may have views too), I am concerned that 'legitimate' builds of healers may STILL cause the AI to overbuild dramatically over time. The scenario that concerns me is this:

Initially your cities are small and there isn't much disease, so it can be controlled fairly easily by buildings or perhaps a single unit.

As the city grows, buildings do not keep pace with the rate of disease from population (to a greater extent than is true for crime I think - both available buildings and the amount of disease they counteract compared to era-by-era equivalents for crime). As a result the AI will keep finding itself (basically every time the city grows with occasional gaps as new buildings come on line) in a situation where building one more healer will bring things under control. Consequently it will do so. The problem is that at each decision point it just needs a single unit so it looks cheap, but what it cannot see is the long term trend, which will mean that by the middle ages it'll likely need 20 healers per city or something, which would destroy its economy.

This doesn't happen for crime because the rate of crime production is fairly well balanced against the amount you can fight it with buildings and improving units as your tech improves.

My concern is that disease is less well balanced currently, and this progressive one-more-healer-will-solve-it situation is likely to arise as a result.

By comparison building sources for negative crime (in aggregate) seem to exceed those for disease in most eras. Similarly unit upgrades and promotions to help fight crime seem more prevalent than healer unit upgrades and promotions. This is compounded by the fact that all the effects of disease take place (currently) in the range 0-100, whereas crime scales out to nearly 1000.

My suggestions would be:
  1. We may need some balancing work done on healer-line/disease-fighting buildings
  2. Healer unit promotions do NOT include extra disease-fighting like their crime fighting counterparts do - surely they should
  3. Since disease takes its fullest effect at only 100, we should probably not be feeding in 4/population like we are for crime that scales up to 1000. 1 or 2 per pop seems more appropriate (note that the disease-fighting buildings are mostly -1 or -2 with very few larger ones at least until the modern era, which seems like another argument for lowering the per- pop input amount)
  4. Until we do some or all of the above it might be better to turn off the disease AIWeight entirely and just accept that the AI will always have rampant disease (essentially because there isn't really a choice anyway, so players will too, at least until roughly the modern age)
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Just to let you know that Diseases are brand new and of course not balanced yet. They are not even fully implemented. It will take a few versions to get them balanced. Note that crime, while not perfectly balanced has had a lot more time to tweak and fix. I mean there are only a hand full of diseases at the moment and they more or less were put in place to see how it worked. More advanced diseases will be implemented later by DH and Thunderbird too.

As for your suggestions ...

1. Of course! Like I said they are not even fully implemented yet.

2. I agree. I was also interested to see what Thunderbird had in mind for them.

3. 100 is just for the current diseases. There will be many more in the future and its worse will be 1000 like crime is. The amount per pop will have to be adjusted as we go.

4. At the moment its a mixture of factors; its unfinished, unbalanced and before the modern era disease was a major factor. A little cut could kill you. Also disease should also be a self righting factor where as a city grows it will reach a natural limit before gets too sick and then goes down a size. Each era will have its own population limit where it just cannot sustain such a high population without getting too sick to function. This is ment to happen and breakthroughs in medical technologies help you break these population barriers.
 
I could probably get you a multi-player game load that shows how many healers have been built since the change and how unthreatened those cities are by disease... But at the moment that's probably about as good as I can do for you.

Agreed that Healers need a promo line for preventative medicine that would reduce overall disease values like crime fighters do with crime, and that the disease values would range from 0-1000 in the final analysis.

My disease mechanisms will work just fine with the way the diseases work now - it'll just make it not so automatic at certain levels to get a disease or overcome it. And when its all said and done it should do the same for crime too...
 
I've noticed a small bug with the Civopedia entry for Erwin Rommel. If you click on the link for the Adventurer trait (which he starts with), you are instead taken to the page for the Adventurer unit.
 
Johnny Canuck said:
I've noticed a small bug with the Civopedia entry for Erwin Rommel. If you click on the link for the Adventurer trait (which he starts with), you are instead taken to the page for the Adventurer unit.
Click to expand...

Dancing Hoskuld said:
That is a fairly easy fix as it is caused by the game text being the same.
Click to expand...

Fixed in new SVN . . . Thx
 
Hydromancerx said:
Just to let you know that Diseases are brand new and of course not balanced yet. They are not even fully implemented. It will take a few versions to get them balanced. Note that crime, while not perfectly balanced has had a lot more time to tweak and fix. I mean there are only a hand full of diseases at the moment and they more or less were put in place to see how it worked. More advanced diseases will be implemented later by DH and Thunderbird too.

As for your suggestions ...

1. Of course! Like I said they are not even fully implemented yet.

2. I agree. I was also interested to see what Thunderbird had in mind for them.

3. 100 is just for the current diseases. There will be many more in the future and its worse will be 1000 like crime is. The amount per pop will have to be adjusted as we go.

4. At the moment its a mixture of factors; its unfinished, unbalanced and before the modern era disease was a major factor. A little cut could kill you. Also disease should also be a self righting factor where as a city grows it will reach a natural limit before gets too sick and then goes down a size. Each era will have its own population limit where it just cannot sustain such a high population without getting too sick to function. This is ment to happen and breakthroughs in medical technologies help you break these population barriers.
Click to expand...

Ok, on balance I think the lowest risk approach fro V27 is just to remove the AIWeight again, and thus have the AI totally ignore disease, since it is anyway pretty much impossible/not worthwhile to control for large swathes of the game. Obviously that will change again later once more tuning is done (V28?).

I'll turn it off today.
 
1. Pic 1, How many units do you have to have in a city for it NOT to revolt, holy cow, i have alot of them there, but it revolts, every next turn when its available, i only get ONE open turn, so to speak???

2. Pic 2, In Abandon City, how come only certain things cant be sold, a granary (why not) in my part of the area, they sell and maintain Granaries all the time.

EDIT Also i think some went array, some the the tech that were selling for $10,000ish not are selling for under $10??
 
strategyonly said:
1. Pic 1, How many units do you have to have in a city for it NOT to revolt, holy cow, i have alot of them there, but it revolts, every next turn when its available, i only get ONE open turn, so to speak???

2. Pic 2, In Abandon City, how come only certain things cant be sold, a granary (why not) in my part of the area, they sell and maintain Granaries all the time.
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1) I don't think any garrison will ultimately stop a revolt if your stability is bad - you must control stability at least to a reasonable extent - garrisons only do so much.

2) Is it a 'real' granary or a 'free in all cities' granary due to the national wonder in some other city? Only stuff you have actually built (for real - i.e. - spent hammer on) is sellable.
 
In the current game i have i have seen NO thief's, No rogues, a few Assassin (maybe 3), No Bandit Foodpads, No Bandit Riders? Again back to this problem?? I have seen a few Ambusher's about 10-15. I know they are building the Assassins Den and Mercenary buildings, because i put ON the AI Governors and all my cities have built them??
 
strategyonly said:
Did someone change how diseases are taking effect now, i am getting tons a lot of Healers in each city now??
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See long post yesterday also on this thread.

I'll be disabling it in the AI today until such time as it's more balanced as a mechanic (it's essentially pointless trying to fight it currently, so I will turn off the AI's attempts to do so). Hopefully there will be some disease balance work in the V28 cycle.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Yes it does reproduce for me and I have neither of those options on.
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Ok, reproduces for me without those options, and I now understand the cause. However, it's a very corner-case which will never effect the AI so I'm not going to risk fiddling with an area that is very complex to fix it (at least not now).

Basically it's happening because the stack includes that ignore the benefit of roads (the subdued eagle), and it evaluates the cost of each move on the group as a whole, so all moves cost 1 movement point because of the eagle. The fact that the eagle has more movement to spare is not taken into account because it is pathing based strictly on costs at the group level.

If you remove the flying units from the group it paths as expected, so the workaround is not to group flying with land units to avoid this problem.
 
Koshling said:
If you remove the flying units from the group it paths as expected, so the workaround is not to group flying with land units to avoid this problem.
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It is tedious enough as it is organising to settle or capture a new without having to split the stack further; the missionaries are in another stack. Oh well, I'll just have to build roads everywhere. At least I now know why.
 
I don't think that that can be correct. It says it costs 2000 hammers and the city is making 105 hammers/turn, but it says it will take 55 turns. Am I missing something obvious?
 

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ls612 said:
I don't think that that can be correct. It says it costs 2000 hammers and the city is making 105 hammers/turn, but it says it will take 55 turns. Am I missing something obvious?
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There are a number of buildings that reduce the cost of buildings eg the Crane line of buildings and the architect line of buildings.
 
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