Ah true, I guess it's a very slight nerf then. Since it's only the great artists being affected. It's a nerf nonetheless though, and maybe allowing turtle ships to enter ocean hexes might balance this?
Vanilla Civilization Overhauls
- Thread starter ScottMcPwn
- Start date
Ah true, I guess it's a very slight nerf then. Since it's only the great artists being affected. It's a nerf nonetheless though, and maybe allowing turtle ships to enter ocean hexes might balance this?
SkaisonFire
Warlord
I find it weird that no one has mentioned Egypt with the addition of archeologists and digging sites.
looks like a great opportunity to overhaul the most boring UA in the game, in my opinion.
looks like a great opportunity to overhaul the most boring UA in the game, in my opinion.
Dragonflow
Emperor
I think nobody mentioned Egypt and an archaeological UA mainly because it wasn't really Egyptians who performed all the digging. It was mostly French, British and German archaeologists that went digging around and native Egyptian archaeologists only appeared after the Second Wolrd War if I'm not mistaken.
SkaisonFire
Warlord
I just think it would be a waste to let such an interesting feature as archeology go to waste, as I can't think of any other civs that would suit it well
Dragonflow
Emperor
Of the top of my head:
Germany
England
France
Russia and America are also possible candidates
And last but not least there is the possibility of Italy having an archaeological UA if they are included. The Italians did a lot of excavating Roman ruins and especially during Mussolini they did dig up a lot of stuff, like the entire city of Leptis Magna, the biggest Roman city in North Africa, and much more.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I still don't see why it's a nerf. Especially since Korea is one of the few civs who don't need Great Scientists to do really well in science, it seems that lack of Academies from every Civ would benefit Korea more than usual. I guess I'm really not following your train of thought here.
I get that you want Turtles to enter Ocean tiles. However, I don't think you can approach this by arguing that Korea is weaker now than it was before.
SkaisonFire
Warlord
Wasn't Mussolini the one who paved a way over a digging site in Rome?
And by an archeological bonus I ment something related to the new feature,
For egypt i could imagine a bonus for artifacts or at least something that isn't as utterly boring as what they have got now.
I would find it peculiar if they left something as obvious as the burial tomb untouched.
LordProtector
Digger
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Messages
- 239
YES! He absolutely did. He dug subway tunnels through priceless buried sites and did untold damage to the search for knowledge of how the Romans lived in their Imperial city. He basically bulldozed the heritage of both Italy and the western world. Identifying him as a great patron of archeology is not dissimilar to describing Hitler as a great astronaut because of his rocketry programs.
Navelgazer
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2012
- Messages
- 1,153
My ideas are probably ridiculous but here they are anyway:
Byzantium: Coastal Start Bias.
Seriously, that's all the tweaking I think they need. Byzantium is the ultimate jack-of-all-trades civ, with a UU that literally lets you pick off the menu for your bonus depending on your situation, but you have to make Stonehenge a priority and that's just going to be the way it is, and at all but the lower difficulties you're going to have to forego the GL in order to get it. What a coastal start bias would do, however, is make sure that you have full use of your Dromond (the most interesting aspect of the Byzantines, IMHO) and also let you explore early on to find the goodie huts that the other civs aren't going to be fighting over so much. That can give you a leg-up on the religion-founding and you can use your UUs in the era they were designed for. Giving Byzantium an innate faith bonus would be overkill, in my estimation.
Dutch: make sure the Sea Beggar has a special benefit related to attacking trade routes.
Perhaps it can capture cargo ships as part of its "prize ship" promotion, and/or perhaps it just appears to all other civs as a Privateer with no flag. I don't know, exactly, but the new mechanics should allow for some fun with piracy.
Rome: Perhaps the Legion could have the option to use the roads they've built to create an international trade route of their attack is failing.
Spain: I've never been a fan of their UA, but should it continue, being the first to discover a natural wonder should have a positive effect on their Great Works.
More ideas when I've got them.
Byzantium: Coastal Start Bias.
Seriously, that's all the tweaking I think they need. Byzantium is the ultimate jack-of-all-trades civ, with a UU that literally lets you pick off the menu for your bonus depending on your situation, but you have to make Stonehenge a priority and that's just going to be the way it is, and at all but the lower difficulties you're going to have to forego the GL in order to get it. What a coastal start bias would do, however, is make sure that you have full use of your Dromond (the most interesting aspect of the Byzantines, IMHO) and also let you explore early on to find the goodie huts that the other civs aren't going to be fighting over so much. That can give you a leg-up on the religion-founding and you can use your UUs in the era they were designed for. Giving Byzantium an innate faith bonus would be overkill, in my estimation.
Dutch: make sure the Sea Beggar has a special benefit related to attacking trade routes.
Perhaps it can capture cargo ships as part of its "prize ship" promotion, and/or perhaps it just appears to all other civs as a Privateer with no flag. I don't know, exactly, but the new mechanics should allow for some fun with piracy.
Rome: Perhaps the Legion could have the option to use the roads they've built to create an international trade route of their attack is failing.
Spain: I've never been a fan of their UA, but should it continue, being the first to discover a natural wonder should have a positive effect on their Great Works.
More ideas when I've got them.
Navelgazer
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2012
- Messages
- 1,153
Or perhaps for Spain nerf their current UA a bit and add a Tourism bonus against civs who have met fewer other Civs/CSes than Spain has.
apocalypse105
Deity
- Joined
- May 17, 2011
- Messages
- 2,705
Germany needs a change because it doesn't really fits with bismarck I woud really like to see a industrial power Uniuqe ability and a unique factory or modern building. Olso the landsknecht wasn't a unique german unit but a mercenary.
Not to mention if I see bismarck I don't thinx about the early days of germany the holy roman empire but the industrial and modern age where germany became a world power
Not to mention if I see bismarck I don't thinx about the early days of germany the holy roman empire but the industrial and modern age where germany became a world power
Well, i would put it quite differently. May I give my take on the Civilizations you mentioned?
Byzantines: A civilization that absolutely needs to build a wonder in order to use their UA is a bad civilization.
And Byzantium is incredibly far away from being the abolute jack of all trades: it has a virtually inexisting UA if you want to use any of their units effectively (unless you are playing low-difficilty and can grab a decent amount of those cathrapacts before the AI spam you with pikemen, since in higher settings it's nearly impossible).
All it's bonuses are compressed upon a single era - and one of the worst eras for that, BTW. And not a single UU ability of the Cathrapact or Dromon remain upon promotion. Tis' just a civilization that burn all it's flavor on the classical era - that is, if you don't push for religion. And (even if just sometimes) when pushing for religion, you may FAIL.
Playing Byzantium is just frustrating.
(And I don't get what's special about Byzantium exploration, since you mentioned it. Building Scouts take away time better spent on shrines/Stonehenge... Unless you wanna gamble and reroll the map if no religious ruins are found. Not a very compelling strategy, methinks)
My ideas for Byzantium are simple, too. To make them playable, you needn't make them gambreaking.
(1) Give them a small bonus ir order to get their pantheon fast.
or (2) Give them another entry on their UA that interact with religion founded by other players, in case they aren't able to found their own (like conquering Holy Cities or taking advantage of other religion Founder Bonuses, idk)
and/or
(3) Make the cathrapact a knight replacement
Dutch: I'd rather they got a bonus on trading, like plus 1 happiness for each sea trade route (that would interact with their trading bonus already). The pirate thing is what I hope the Ottomans get.
Rome: Rome's good as it is, even though it's incredibly boring to play as. I'm hoping for some overhaul too, but I don't think it will happen. Even a National wonder building bonus would be welcome.
Someone suggested, some time ago, that they get +1 production in their capital for each city in the empire, instead of their actual UA - and I think it would lead to an interesting playing strategy.
Spain: No comments. I think they need to be rebuilt from scratch.
An idea I had some time ago was a Unique National Wonder for Spain - an inquisition citadel, built with faith, that would make inquisitors cheaper on the city it was built (and yield lots of faith and culture, of course). And frankly, I wouldn't miss either of their UU's that much. I'm having delusional hopes already that the Conquistador go as an UU in the new exploration SP tree and Spain gets something else in it's place.
Not Vanilla.
Through procrastination (reading about Gustavus Adolphus instead of Total War) The Swedish UU's just do not make sense. Replace the Carolian with a cannon replacement that can shoot without setting up. The whole might of the Swedish army during Gustavus's time was based on the fact that the army was extremely mobile. The cannon could be something like:
Light Field Artillery
Does not have to set up for ranged attack.(doesn't keep the promotion after upgrade)
+100% bonus vs. cities
+25/+50% bonus versus melee and gunpowder units
The light artillery would thus not be that much a siege weapon, but rather one that excels against land units.
The UA is also quite illogical, but I've not really got that many ideas on a replacement.
Edit: actually came up with an UA.
Defender of the faith
+15% combat strength if fighting within 3 tiles of a city that has had your religion as the majority religion for 20 turns.
Provides a free courthouse in cities where your religion has been the majority religion for 20 turns.
Many say that one of the main reasons Sweden joined the 30 years war was to protect the protestant movement. It would also create a really interesting synergy between religion and warfare, possibly making Sweden the best midgame warmonger, if enough emphasis is put on religion in the game.
Through procrastination (reading about Gustavus Adolphus instead of Total War) The Swedish UU's just do not make sense. Replace the Carolian with a cannon replacement that can shoot without setting up. The whole might of the Swedish army during Gustavus's time was based on the fact that the army was extremely mobile. The cannon could be something like:
Light Field Artillery
Does not have to set up for ranged attack.(doesn't keep the promotion after upgrade)
+100% bonus vs. cities
+25/+50% bonus versus melee and gunpowder units
The light artillery would thus not be that much a siege weapon, but rather one that excels against land units.
The UA is also quite illogical, but I've not really got that many ideas on a replacement.
Edit: actually came up with an UA.
Defender of the faith
+15% combat strength if fighting within 3 tiles of a city that has had your religion as the majority religion for 20 turns.
Provides a free courthouse in cities where your religion has been the majority religion for 20 turns.
Many say that one of the main reasons Sweden joined the 30 years war was to protect the protestant movement. It would also create a really interesting synergy between religion and warfare, possibly making Sweden the best midgame warmonger, if enough emphasis is put on religion in the game.
Hans Castorp
Prince
I am agnostic about the UA, though I have read some vigourous defences of it, but I disagree with you strongly about the uus, which both already seem designed to achieve the rapid mobility you desire. The Hakkapeliitta already grants extra movement to ggs, and if you are concerned about tying in with Gustavus Adolphus' reign, represents it well enough. The Carolean, despite being a rifleman replacement, obviously references the adventures of Charles XII rather than Gustavus Adolphus, but the March promotion, which does carry over on promotion, makes them extremely quick on the attack. It is a good pairing, that I do not think needs revising, particularly to achieve an effect that is alreay present.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
JuhQman, why are you limiting Sweden to one part of their history?
The problem is that Caroleans are not remembered for their stamina. This is an extract from wikipedia:
"The Carolean army was small and because of the sparse number of soldiers it needed a continuance of victories, as a heavy defeat could be irreparable. It was defeated after a long and fateful march into the Russian interior, where they were exposed to scorched earth tactics, small frequent raids and the cold Russian climate. The Swedish soldiers who reached the battle of Poltava were exhausted and hungry. During this long march an estimated 35,000 Swedish soldiers - 70 percent of the army - died of famine, disease and exhaustion. The battle ended in a decisive Russian victory which resulted in the decline of the Swedish Empire."
The Carolean UU just does not make sense in my eyes.
Mainly because that was, at least in my eyes, their greatest hour. As in my quote above, they ceased to be a "great power" after the war against Russia.
However I'm not saying they should be limited to a certain era. But their strengths do not really seem that strong from where I'm looking at them.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
And they have the Hakkapeliitta to represent that era.
That is true. But personally I do not think that is enough. Especially as the light field artilleries were far more important to their success, when compared to either of their current UUs.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I personally would have liked to see Light Artillery, I agree. However, I don't want to squeeze the Fins out, so it would mean the Carolean goes away. I'd rather not do that.
As a Finn myself I don't really have a problem with getting rid of the Hakkapeliittas. But as the civ is Sweden-Finland, it does make sense to keep them.
The coule of times I've played with Sweden, it has not really offered me anything unique gamewise and I would really hope for that to change.
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