I might be alone on this, but I've always felt that caps are really boring. Some times they are necessary, but you certainly don't want to base something around caps, ever.
Venice
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I might be alone on this, but I've always felt that caps are really boring. Some times they are necessary, but you certainly don't want to base something around caps, ever.
Atlas627
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Yeah the Venetian political system is fascinating, especially with the way it had to fend off threats from multiple different major foes simultaneously (Milan - their archrival, the Pope and his Papal League, the Austrians and French with Italian ambitions, the Ottomans, the Genoese - their trade competition, and then themselves and their own infighting)
Atlas627
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There is a time and place for caps. For example, there are a max number of trade routes. Increasing that cap is valuable, and in the meantime it creates more opportunity cost than just forcing you to build each trade route does on its own.
There is a cap on the number of specialists you have, and of each type. Increasing that cap is very valuable, and finding ways to efficiently use which cities have which caps is interesting.
The cap I suggested was to limit the number of Guild UIs you can build to the trade route cap. This is a pretty high cap for Venice but it also goes up very quickly. Now I have to admit that that kinda sucks for larger maps or Venices that get super wide (somehow), but the trade route cap is like that already. It is one of the elements that does NOT scale with going wide, which is something you want for a trait that straight-up doubles resources.
PurpleMentat
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Alright. Let me clarify, then. As someone who's been involved in Civ since III and a member of the general gaming pop-culture that I assume continues to be the target audience of this mod, the political system of Venice has never been pushed as important. No game, movie, or piece of fiction I have experienced has mentioned it as being especially unique. Controlling trade through shrewd deals and clever warfare using natural terrain advantages are the aspects that have always been emphasised. I apologize for not having studied history in enough detail, and only having a general pop-culture understanding of these aspects.
I gave the linked wikipedia article a quick read. The Great Council seems to be only one facet of a complex political system, and seems to have mostly been involved in legislature and electing higher officials. I'm not certain what any of that has to do, thematically, with earning other yields by buying units and investing in buildings. The Market seems more appropriate. The Bazaar doesn't really mechanically synergize with Arabia anymore, as nothing else about the civ touches trade routes, so a UB council might be a better fit as Arabia's House of Wisdom.
As someone that genuinely enjoys Venice as one of my favorite civs, I dislike the idea of a UB that gives yields for spending gold. It is not fun, it is not interesting, it is exactly what I was going to do anyway. It will be the first thing I tech, the second or third thing I build, every game. It also seems like it will be incredibly difficult to make relevant throughout the game without being overwhelming at any point. However, if it does make life that much easier, I'm willing to give it a shot. It certainly won't make things worse than they are now, and could be more fun than it seems in advance.
Sorry if this all came off grumpy and hostile. I'm grumpy and sick. I could spend half an hour obsessing over the tone, but I think I'll just post it with this apology.
I gave the linked wikipedia article a quick read. The Great Council seems to be only one facet of a complex political system, and seems to have mostly been involved in legislature and electing higher officials. I'm not certain what any of that has to do, thematically, with earning other yields by buying units and investing in buildings. The Market seems more appropriate. The Bazaar doesn't really mechanically synergize with Arabia anymore, as nothing else about the civ touches trade routes, so a UB council might be a better fit as Arabia's House of Wisdom.
As someone that genuinely enjoys Venice as one of my favorite civs, I dislike the idea of a UB that gives yields for spending gold. It is not fun, it is not interesting, it is exactly what I was going to do anyway. It will be the first thing I tech, the second or third thing I build, every game. It also seems like it will be incredibly difficult to make relevant throughout the game without being overwhelming at any point. However, if it does make life that much easier, I'm willing to give it a shot. It certainly won't make things worse than they are now, and could be more fun than it seems in advance.
Sorry if this all came off grumpy and hostile. I'm grumpy and sick. I could spend half an hour obsessing over the tone, but I think I'll just post it with this apology.
No worries I just wanted to clarify that, whatever the reason that we do/do not make a council UB, blaming it on Venice not having an interesting government isn't a valid argument.
There are lots of other valid ones, though.
G
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Venetian Trade Station
Unique Improvement - Trading
Build in Venetian territory, adjacent to luxury or strategic resources not currently claimed, not adjacent to other Trade Stations.
Claims adjacent unclaimed luxury and strategic resource tiles
Acts as a road for City Connections and unit and caravan movement.
Acts as a Fort for defense and canal function.
Yields (balance as needed):
+2 Gold, +1 Gold per adjacent luxury and strategic resource, and river and coast tile
+2 Culture, +2 Culture if crossed by a Trade Route
I figure connecting resources is the main feature, but if it is placed carefully, it can get some spectacular yields too. And it will have some utility as well.
Unique Improvement - Trading
Build in Venetian territory, adjacent to luxury or strategic resources not currently claimed, not adjacent to other Trade Stations.
Claims adjacent unclaimed luxury and strategic resource tiles
Acts as a road for City Connections and unit and caravan movement.
Acts as a Fort for defense and canal function.
Yields (balance as needed):
+2 Gold, +1 Gold per adjacent luxury and strategic resource, and river and coast tile
+2 Culture, +2 Culture if crossed by a Trade Route
I figure connecting resources is the main feature, but if it is placed carefully, it can get some spectacular yields too. And it will have some utility as well.
I honestly don't like the trading route system, I've accepted it and I deal with it, but I'm not a fan of it.
Also it doesn't necessarily feel like a cap, caravans doesn't feel like something you build up until you reach a cap, it feels more like a reward for certain techs.
Having an improvement that you can and should build on luxuries but without the ability to build it on all luxuries because of an arbitrary cap feels kinda boring to me.
I don't see specialists as caps at all actually, they are bonuses on certain buildings, kinda like how a market have +2 gold. I mean technically you can always get more specialists by building more cities (I guess until you run out of space on the map, but that's one of those caps you don't notice because it just doesn't happen.
I still don't like it.
Still not a fan of these, as I can see them being of extremely limited use.
Atlas627
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To be fair, there is a precedent set by Firaxis for educating the audience of the game by introducing some less familiar elements of history. For example, everyone has heard of Henry the Navigator, and some have heard of his father the king of Portugal at the time. Yet neither of them are the leader of Portugal, even though they are by far the most famous leaders of Portugal. Instead you have Maria (probably chosen for more female representation, which is already hard to find in pop culture history), who is famous for leading Portugal at a time when it was kicked out of Portugal!
China has Empress Wu, the only female ruler of China. Most people have never heard of her, and have only heard of Qin Shi Huang Di or Mao Zedong.
Denmark had Norwegian Ski Infantry in the base game. Most people probably have no idea that the crowns of Denmark and Norway had been united for centuries as Denmark-Norway. If they were just meant to be the "Viking" civ like pop culture would know, then they should have given them a longboat UU and more of a pillaging UA.
Siam and the Songhai being in the game at all are interesting choices. Mansa Musa was very famous, and the Songhai basically just took over the Mali empire. Siam is probably the best choice for Southeast Asia, but its name no longer exists as a country.
There are many cases of heavy pandering to pop culture though, which is also fine. As Funak has pointed out in this thread, the "Merchant of Venice" is a reference to Shakespeare's play, though it is also somewhat fitting with Venice itself. The Mayan and Aztec UAs are also obviously chosen because they are most recognizable to the average player. The Huns in vanilla are just pure pop culture.
And then there are some inbetween, like Indonesia and Polynesia. While neither was historically an empire, Majaphit and Hawaii were unified and civilized in their own right. Extending that to Indonesia and Polynesia is a bit of a stretch, but most people have probably never heard of Majaphit and assume Hawaii had no history before the US arrived.
Sorry for rambling, but my point is that giving Venice a Great Council, while not likely to be recognized by most of the audience, is appropriate nevertheless (or perhaps even because of that fact). I still think its not a good idea, though.
Atlas627
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Right, they don't feel like caps. What you notice is that increasing the cap is a reward.
And no, you aren't "supposed" to build it on every luxury resource. That's boring. That's a UA that says "improved luxuries provide +X yield". For it to be unique, it needs limitations and power. If its just a straight buff to something everyone was doing anyway, there's no choice in the matter.
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It has like 5 different useful features. You just have to be, you know, strategic to get the most out of it.
Can't act as roads - routes are not technically improvements, they're 'builds' (and they're handled uniquely in the DLL).
Also, I should note that a 'cap' on UIs is not feasible. It'd be a bear to teach the AI.
To be honest, the more complex the UI becomes (and that's where the discussion is moving), the less I'm inclined to agree with it, as it'll become really hard to teach the AI to use it properly. For the sake of the DLL, I really think a UB is more viable.
G
PurpleMentat
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reposting the second half, 'cause I think I edited it in and it got missed.
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I gave the linked wikipedia article a quick read. The Great Council seems to be only one facet of a complex political system, and seems to have mostly been involved in legislature and electing higher officials. I'm not certain what any of that has to do, thematically, with earning other yields by buying units and investing in buildings. The Market seems more appropriate. The Bazaar doesn't really mechanically synergize with Arabia anymore, as nothing else about the civ touches trade routes, so a UB council might be a better fit as Arabia's House of Wisdom.
As someone that genuinely enjoys Venice as one of my favorite civs, I dislike the idea of a UB that gives yields for spending gold. It is not fun, it is not interesting, it is exactly what I was going to do anyway. It will be the first thing I tech, the second or third thing I build, every game. It also seems like it will be incredibly difficult to make relevant throughout the game without being overwhelming at any point. However, if it does make life that much easier, I'm willing to give it a shot. It certainly won't make things worse than they are now, and could be more fun than it seems in advance.
Sorry if this all came off grumpy and hostile. I'm grumpy and sick. I could spend half an hour obsessing over the tone, but I think I'll just post it with this apology.
---
I gave the linked wikipedia article a quick read. The Great Council seems to be only one facet of a complex political system, and seems to have mostly been involved in legislature and electing higher officials. I'm not certain what any of that has to do, thematically, with earning other yields by buying units and investing in buildings. The Market seems more appropriate. The Bazaar doesn't really mechanically synergize with Arabia anymore, as nothing else about the civ touches trade routes, so a UB council might be a better fit as Arabia's House of Wisdom.
As someone that genuinely enjoys Venice as one of my favorite civs, I dislike the idea of a UB that gives yields for spending gold. It is not fun, it is not interesting, it is exactly what I was going to do anyway. It will be the first thing I tech, the second or third thing I build, every game. It also seems like it will be incredibly difficult to make relevant throughout the game without being overwhelming at any point. However, if it does make life that much easier, I'm willing to give it a shot. It certainly won't make things worse than they are now, and could be more fun than it seems in advance.
Sorry if this all came off grumpy and hostile. I'm grumpy and sick. I could spend half an hour obsessing over the tone, but I think I'll just post it with this apology.
Atlas627
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You don't seem grumpy at all! Sorry you're sick.
And I agree almost entirely with this post. Including that Arabia does not synergize with the current Bazaar at all
That part makes it limited, really limited. The fact that it has multiple uses really doesn't matter much if you can't build it.
I'm going to push for Arabia getting a Library replacement, Madrasa, soon enough. I'm really not a fan of council replacement, the building is so early that you can't do anything fun with it really. I mean that's one of the main problems of the current UB, it's early and really boring.And I agree almost entirely with this post. Including that Arabia does not synergize with the current Bazaar at all
Atlas627
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Fine, just a Guild UI that gives extra yields to luxuries (and strategics if possible) then? Maaaaaybe extra production on adjacent villages? Simple, way better than the Palace, way better than a UNW, and imo still better than a UB.
We still lack discrete improvement graphics for it. One of these might suffice, though: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=22649
Extra yields to luxuries? How so?
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Good points.
If we were to do the UB, I would want to see the yield conversion produce something other than Gold.
Yeah let's just get back on track.
I suggested Medieval era unlock earlier (seems to be the earliest you can put a unique improvement not made out of sticks and/or boulders)
Purple mentat mentioned being able to get some 3d art going somehow.
The yields kinda need to follow some theme, but I'm not sure which one.
I think you misunderstand. It'd be converting gold into other things, not the other way around. To me that seems like a solid synergy for Venice, but others seem to think it is too 'matter of fact' to be interesting.
G
Atlas627
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If you're willing to bother, then different types of yields on the luxuries would be great.
Basically, its a UI that goes straight on top of luxuries. It isn't technically a [insert normal improvement type here] so it won't work with some beliefs/policies/whatever, but perhaps we need a reason to not build it on every luxury ever, yeah?
Well Guilds seems like the most appropriate place thematically, and that would help with their scaling issue for not having a huge empire all the time (some free yields to the UA might be necessary...or just give the MoV a unique town). That might not be the best place gameplay-wise though. I don't have the tech tree in front of me right now
Edit: Something wrong with the old trading post art from vanilla? And PurpleMentat said he can get a model made.
