Veterancy

megamanx06

Caswallan
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I had a thought recently: why not bring back veterancy? Have it give +50% strength. It might seem high, but when you consider most units having it, it cancels out. It makes a whole lot more sense. Realistically, it doesn't matter how much training you've had, nothing can prepare you for battle. Therefore units that have seen serious combat (maybe at <75% odds? higher?) would have a huge advantage to the most highly trained greens. Anyway, what do you guys think?
 
I think combat promotions do a perfect job of reflecting training vs experience. Even if a unit has 3 promotions from training, it still is no match for a unit with lots of combat experience.
 
megamanx06: Interesting idea and I see your point; it's very plausible. No training is quite the same as the real thing, yet I'm unsure whether you mean a unit can choose Veteran as a promotion, or if it's automatic to all (no level changing needed) who survive a "serirous combat". I think you mean the second case, and that sounds intriguing but man! 50% increase!?

Dark Russell: ? It's not clear to me what you mean: if a unit has 3 promotions from "training" (I'm not sure what that is except maybe from free XPs based on things like the Apprenticeship civic, etc.?) - let's say they chose Combat I, II, III. How would that be different from battlefield promotions where we choose Combat I, II, III. Just asking, I don't know.
 
no. ten characters

Please don't do that.

***** awaits if you want to post random, pointless phrases. The point of a discussion forum is to discuss. If you have a problem with this idea, say why? provide arguments for or against it.

If you're not going to take them time to even type up a full sentance, you'd be better off not posting at all.


On topic:
I like the idea of a promotion for units that have won at least one battle, but I think 50% is a ridiculously high increase. I don't think someone who spent years training in swordsmanship, armor handling, shield techniques, etc, in a military academy (a chanmpion) should lose out to someone who just clubbed a random wolf to death.

I'd say, make it a more subtle bonus. like 10-20%
 
Training is what happens when you build an archery range and then park archers in that city. They slowly gain free experience from "training"

Edit: oops, I guess he is just talking about exp from civics and wonders and stuff because that kind of training is a FF feature. Time to pay attention to what forum I'm in lol

Interesting idea. It would nerf builder/peaceful civs, i'm not really sure if thats needed or not. Also the AI does an awful job of keeping units alive, whether experienced or not.

If it is implemented though, animals shouldn't count and certain warrior nations should be exempt (like the doviello and clan). Since you would have to micromanage sending all your conscripts in for cleanup duty, the bonus should be big enough to be worth your time, 10% would just be annoying.
 
But that's only included in Fall Further.

Also if we are comparing training to real combat, then we must remember that training techniques have changed through the ages, it's impossible to just use modern training as a reference unless they also have modern equipment, a modern society and the modern mindset. Which we know they don't have.

EDIT: Though including some promotions/effects (or the code so modmodders can include them themselves) that increases unit health, à la Civ 3, would be nice.
 
Please don't do that.

***** awaits if you want to post random, pointless phrases. The point of a discussion forum is to discuss. If you have a problem with this idea, say why? provide arguments for or against it.

If you're not going to take them time to even type up a full sentance, you'd be better off not posting at all.

honestly this thread was a random pointless post. why provide arguments for or against it?
 
honestly this thread was a random pointless post. why provide arguments for or against it?

I wouldn't call someone else's idea pointless.

The suggestion has merit, but as described in the OP, would be too powerful. Hence there is room for discussion.

If you don't think it's a good idea, it's not too much effort to type out some words about why.
 
right. i too think, that the XP system already reflects training/veterancy.

BUT: thinking of it i got another two points:

1) wouldnt it be more realistic to have some veterancy promos? i.e. some promos you can ONLY get in the field and not via "building "towel of the sweating" gives every undead priest built in this city 10XP" edit: on second thought it could be too confusing.

2) is there any better way to get promos displayed? if you use govannon it gets pretty hefty to check out which of your damn champions was the one with the anti-archer promotion again... just asking, because it gets a bit tricky after a while if you try to specialize in one stack...
 
I can understand the xp system. I will explain my views here, though.

I view the promotions system, as "skills", of sorts. Combat I indicates a general proficiency in handling a sword. Combat II is advanced parrying and disarming techniques. Guerilla represents time spent training in rough/hilly environments, and getting used to that terrain. Woodsman represents knowledge of the forests, how to climb trees, what berries are poisonous, etc.

These skills are obviously aqquired through training and/or combat. For the "Veterancy" concept here, I see it as the "feel" of killing a man. Bypassing the mental barrier, and striking the killing blow to an enemy. After having done it once, and gotten over the initial shock, a soldier becomes much less hesitant in the future, raising his overall combat effectiveness. It would also represent seeing firsthand, friends dying around you. Comrades falling on the field of battle.

Generally, I think Veterancy should represent a mentality, that no amount of training in barracks and academies can teach. The XP system doesn't quite cover it, because there are many ways to gain xp without directly fighting, like civics, wonders, buildings, feasting, etc.
 
Hmm. Could be interesting to see a distinction between units that have actually been in a battle and those that have not. But surely not something as overpowered as +50% str. It could even have a temporary negative impact if you get unlucky (soldiers getting PTSD because of all the horrible things they were forced to do, etc).
 
I figure the XP / promotions system is "good enough", I don't see a great need for a powerful "veterancy" promo that virtually every unit would have, except for maybe green city defenders who've never been attacked.

You could go the opposite route too and apply some kind of negative promo to everyone called "Unblooded", or "Green" with some kind of negative, which would get removed after getting your first battle won or something. Still, if you've chosen to run XP enhancing civics, build XP enhancing wonders, etc., you'd figure even those green troops might look pretty good day one. Mounted units for instance being built with Ride of the Nine Kings, and Form of the Titan, and maybe Conquest and Theocracy, under a Charismatic leader... yeah they are pretty handy right out the gate, and should be due to all those wonder/civic/leader choice investments.
 
You could go the opposite route too and apply some kind of negative promo to everyone called "Unblooded", or "Green" with some kind of negative, which would get removed after getting your first battle won

Well, that idea looks slightly better, in my opinion. No overpowers, no changes in balance, just, say, -20% strength to units, which never had a battle. Also, Aggressive trait can nullify this trait (units of aggressive civilization are always battle-ready!).
 
right. i too think, that the XP system already reflects training/veterancy.

BUT: thinking of it i got another two points:

1) wouldnt it be more realistic to have some veterancy promos? i.e. some promos you can ONLY get in the field and not via "building "towel of the sweating" gives every undead priest built in this city 10XP" edit: on second thought it could be too confusing.
...

There are promotions you can only get through experience, it's just not a set rule but because of the way the system works and how free promotions are gotten. There are only so many buildings that give free xp. I don't know how many, but lets say it was only enough to get three free promotions. In that case it makes Combat IV only available by real battle experience.
Also in this mod, considering how much experience you can get from combat, there's already less impact from free experience from buildings that there is in the regular game.
 
As mentioned, I don't think something like this should be incredibly powerful. Just a 10% bonus would be nice. Not a lot, but it could tip the scales in some battles.
 
It would make sense to for your units to recieve a veteran promotion, but not that large. You could track the combat chances like in FF, and for example when a unit had a certain chance of survival, no matter how many combats, it would get a veteran or elite promotion (for example with 50% survival odds and 25% survival odds). This would give players some incentive to have risky battles. Maybe you could replace combat with veterancy. Which would also mean suicide attacks arent that suicidy anymore as it gives you a promotion representing you went through the fiercest of battles.

Getting promotion based on total survival odds would mean you got experience through heavy battle or many battles or a mix.

BTW in what way is receiving 10XP through 10 battles at 99.9% odds totally different then training? I would also want promo's representing real combat experience.
 
As mentioned, I don't think something like this should be incredibly powerful. Just a 10% bonus would be nice. Not a lot, but it could tip the scales in some battles.

I think it should be more than that. Maybe an option to get a 20% strength bonus from combat experience. This would do a good job of representing the veteran idea. I think that 2 XP is enough to qualify for that option. I do think that it should be a promotion since that would make it easier to code instead of trying to make an entirely new effect.

I also think that Aggressive leaders' units should get that promotion for free since their troops are already combat veterans just from the brutal kill-or-be-killed life on the streets that comes from living in an Aggressive leader's empire.

I also think that you're going to see a big difference between a soldier who has been through a single battle (even though that is life-or-death too) and a grizzled veteran who has been through 20 years of campaigning. Because of that, I think that you should be able to qualify for repeated instances of that veteran promotion for an extra +20% combat strength each time.

Maybe you could even tie other promotions to it too. Like how you're only going to be sneaky enough to get a Commando promotion if you've already gotten 4 of the veteran promotions, or you could heal while marching/fighting if you're tough enough to have survived and gotten 3 of the veteran promotions already (Melee units only).

What do you think?
 
I think it should be more than that. Maybe an option to get a 20% strength bonus from combat experience. This would do a good job of representing the veteran idea. I think that 2 XP is enough to qualify for that option. I do think that it should be a promotion since that would make it easier to code instead of trying to make an entirely new effect.

I also think that Aggressive leaders' units should get that promotion for free since their troops are already combat veterans just from the brutal kill-or-be-killed life on the streets that comes from living in an Aggressive leader's empire.

I also think that you're going to see a big difference between a soldier who has been through a single battle (even though that is life-or-death too) and a grizzled veteran who has been through 20 years of campaigning. Because of that, I think that you should be able to qualify for repeated instances of that veteran promotion for an extra +20% combat strength each time.

Maybe you could even tie other promotions to it too. Like how you're only going to be sneaky enough to get a Commando promotion if you've already gotten 4 of the veteran promotions, or you could heal while marching/fighting if you're tough enough to have survived and gotten 3 of the veteran promotions already (Melee units only).

What do you think?

Awesome :D
 
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