Veterancy
- Thread starter megamanx06
- Start date
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
I have checked the XML and python available for FFH 2. Unfortunately this cannot be done the way I had imagined, since promotions can only give percentage modifiers and I didn't find a way to get to the unit's stats just before the beggining of a combat.
Changes to the SDK for this purpose would have been too much of a pain to worth the result.
However, the same thing can be implemented using percentages, but, IMO, this would defeat the purpose of veterancy.
Veterancy should be much more importand for low tech units, rather than high-tech ones(thus the +1, that would be +33% for a warrior but less than +10% for a phalanx).
Having veterancy expressed as a percentage would, incorrectly IMO, make higher tech units much more effective.
Just for your information.
Changes to the SDK for this purpose would have been too much of a pain to worth the result.
However, the same thing can be implemented using percentages, but, IMO, this would defeat the purpose of veterancy.
Veterancy should be much more importand for low tech units, rather than high-tech ones(thus the +1, that would be +33% for a warrior but less than +10% for a phalanx).
Having veterancy expressed as a percentage would, incorrectly IMO, make higher tech units much more effective.
Just for your information.
Promotions can change strength. Just use the weapons promotions (Bronze, Iron and Mithril) for reference.
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
Yes, but not on specific Target_Promotions.
EDIT: I want +1 strength against Elves..It can't be done.
+20% against Elves. It can be done.
Minor Annoyance
Deity
I was going to say that too. There's so much xp from combat in this mod that your first battle likely overtakes all the free xp a unit can get.
cIV_khanh93
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2008
- Messages
- 528
I guess modding philiosophy was a bad use of words. I should have said something along hte lines of gameplay>realism.
Luckmann
Esusian Epicure
Not true. Some vikings did in fact have horned helmets (but rarely or never winged helmets, as opposed to the celts, which did). This was most likely restricted to the upper castes and the priesthoods, however, and never (or very rarely; the point is arguable) used in actual combat.
C'mon. Running into a battle with a horned helmet is dumb. But it sure looks awesome.
shapecharge
Chieftain
Ok in defense of the original poster and Thunder as a man who has actually been in real combat more then once and performs a job that is hazardous nothing builds compentancy and experince more then the real thing. Now that does not mean that soliders/anything can't be better prepared through training and even veterens maintain skills and combat complancency through substained training but nothing replaces real combat and real situations in terms of gaining experence.
Now in defense of civ kahn and people on the other side of this I prefer gameplay over realism in the long run in my civ/ffh so personally on that note give me variety and choices and fun first. Don't bog down the game in the name of making it more realistic (I like wargames I like things representing realism to a point; but it is a game so like any game enjoyment should be top priority).
Also I think with just a touch of imagination Kael and the team have already done a pretty good job on promotions and units to represent both training and combat experience.
Civs like the Dovilleo get to start with traits like aggresive representing thier harsher upbringing and lifestlye, Ehlohim get homeland to represent the more passive but yet defensive upbringing ect...Training is already represented by getting that combat I or II through buildings and/or civics and combat experince is represented well by going out and fighting and getting more promotions. The fighting a wolf is not the same as fighting a axemen for experience has been addressed in the last patch or the one before that when Kael lowered the experince you gain from barbarians and defeating something like Orthos always gets you more experince then a warrior also. Better weapons also make a difference and this is addressed with bronze to iron to mithrial and other things like the percision tech.
It seems to be that most people seem to prefer variety and choices in thier games then complication sometimes less is more so to speak so my 2 cents for what its worth is instead of a seperate parrallel system if you want to represent veteren combat grizzled soliders just add a new promotion for it, much like blitz I can't get that as a choice until I am level 8 or something usually, and to the best of my knowledge no unit can get that high regardless of buildings or civics combos right out the gate so they are going to have to see some combat before its avaliable. So give me more variety in promotion choices, events, leaders, units, spells everything but if your going to change or add systems make sure that it doesn't take from the fun or become tedious....thats my input as a player to you modders.
Now in defense of civ kahn and people on the other side of this I prefer gameplay over realism in the long run in my civ/ffh so personally on that note give me variety and choices and fun first. Don't bog down the game in the name of making it more realistic (I like wargames I like things representing realism to a point; but it is a game so like any game enjoyment should be top priority).
Also I think with just a touch of imagination Kael and the team have already done a pretty good job on promotions and units to represent both training and combat experience.
Civs like the Dovilleo get to start with traits like aggresive representing thier harsher upbringing and lifestlye, Ehlohim get homeland to represent the more passive but yet defensive upbringing ect...Training is already represented by getting that combat I or II through buildings and/or civics and combat experince is represented well by going out and fighting and getting more promotions. The fighting a wolf is not the same as fighting a axemen for experience has been addressed in the last patch or the one before that when Kael lowered the experince you gain from barbarians and defeating something like Orthos always gets you more experince then a warrior also. Better weapons also make a difference and this is addressed with bronze to iron to mithrial and other things like the percision tech.
It seems to be that most people seem to prefer variety and choices in thier games then complication sometimes less is more so to speak so my 2 cents for what its worth is instead of a seperate parrallel system if you want to represent veteren combat grizzled soliders just add a new promotion for it, much like blitz I can't get that as a choice until I am level 8 or something usually, and to the best of my knowledge no unit can get that high regardless of buildings or civics combos right out the gate so they are going to have to see some combat before its avaliable. So give me more variety in promotion choices, events, leaders, units, spells everything but if your going to change or add systems make sure that it doesn't take from the fun or become tedious....thats my input as a player to you modders.
Minor Annoyance
Deity
I've made that point too but the argument continues unabated. Maybe if I actually did the math to see the most xp and promotions you can get for free and list the promotions that you can't possibly get without combat.
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
I have decided to start modding the idea, but it may take some time. I do not really intend to make it available through a download, though, because it will be hard as hell to maintain(considering having to change the SDK and such stuff). However, once it is ready, I will happily give the code for integration to anyone that would like the ability to have two extra promotion fields, effecting increases to strength/defence on target promotions(E.g. +x str against Elves, +x defence against orcs, etc)...
WarKirby
Arty person
Even if kael has no plans of using it, it seems like this would be something really worthwhile having in the FFH DLL, for modmodders.
JonathanStrange
PrinceWithA1000Enemies
Wow, I really didn't believe Veterancy as a concept would be capable of generating this much discussion: we already have dozens and dozens of promotions that I thought it relatively unnecessary. The Combat promotions, could easily be considered a sub-set of Veterancy, just as Drill and other promos could be considered a Veterancy sub-set for their particular troop type line. They all provide increased battle performance which is the point for me. Given that they're also generally received after earning XPs in combat, I'll just treat the current promos as falling under the umbrella term "Veterancy".
Now if FFH2 were claiming to accurately model combat in Erebus all its complexity and yet doing so in such a way as to amuse actual real-life FFH2 combat veterans who've felt the terror of being a new recruit facing a charge by heavily-armored Amurite knights or experienced the sudden shock as an Ljosalfar assassin rises like a phantom from the forest leaves, then I'd say yeah, we need to reflect combat as it really is. If Veterancy really did that, instead of just being yet another promotion, I'd welcome it too.
Now if FFH2 were claiming to accurately model combat in Erebus all its complexity and yet doing so in such a way as to amuse actual real-life FFH2 combat veterans who've felt the terror of being a new recruit facing a charge by heavily-armored Amurite knights or experienced the sudden shock as an Ljosalfar assassin rises like a phantom from the forest leaves, then I'd say yeah, we need to reflect combat as it really is. If Veterancy really did that, instead of just being yet another promotion, I'd welcome it too.
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
The difference of Veterancy vs typical promotions, is that Veterancy promotions are gained automatically and only as a result of actual combat. It is not a matter of gaining XP as with other promotions, since XP can be gained passively. Veterancy cannot.
So, if a unit finds itself fighting a lot of elves, it will become, eventually, a veteran on this field and will gain increases in str/defence against elves, etc...
Revolutionist
Chieftain
I really don't think veterancy is at all necessary. Especially not on any basis of 'realism'.
Experience is an entirely abstract system.
Group 1 was a bunch of conscripts, given swords without any training and kicked out the gates to attack the enemy. They go out and bury said swords into other squishy targets. They gain 2xp and buy combat 1.
Group 2 are swordsmen that are trained in the city of a civ running Apprenticeship. They use their 2xp of training to buy combat 1.
Group 1 is battle hardened, knowing some of the horrors of combat, they know what to expect. They don't necessarily use their weapons to their best, since nobody ever told them the proper way. Still, that gives them a 20% bonus in combat over untrained, untested troops.
Group 2 learned under a harsh, grizzled veteran of previous battles for a few months. They know what side of the sword to hold, and how to swing it properly. Some of them will be shocked when bloody combat occurs for real. Still, that gives them a 20% bonus in combat over untrained, untested troops.
That 20% you got for your 2xp can mean a whole host of things. Where it comes from is entirely besides the point. It just represents them being better in some way.
Experience is an entirely abstract system.
Group 1 was a bunch of conscripts, given swords without any training and kicked out the gates to attack the enemy. They go out and bury said swords into other squishy targets. They gain 2xp and buy combat 1.
Group 2 are swordsmen that are trained in the city of a civ running Apprenticeship. They use their 2xp of training to buy combat 1.
Group 1 is battle hardened, knowing some of the horrors of combat, they know what to expect. They don't necessarily use their weapons to their best, since nobody ever told them the proper way. Still, that gives them a 20% bonus in combat over untrained, untested troops.
Group 2 learned under a harsh, grizzled veteran of previous battles for a few months. They know what side of the sword to hold, and how to swing it properly. Some of them will be shocked when bloody combat occurs for real. Still, that gives them a 20% bonus in combat over untrained, untested troops.
That 20% you got for your 2xp can mean a whole host of things. Where it comes from is entirely besides the point. It just represents them being better in some way.
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
It is intresting not having read the arguments presented in this thread. Necessary or not, I like it and I am modding it.
You find it unnessecary, No problem. So do I
. Just like many things in mods. The mods motives are not necessity.They are making the most fun out of it. Unless what you are going to argue next is that FFH2 was "necessary"...
I know I like the concept of Veterancy, as I have imagined it , and I find it very interesting and quite fun.
You find it unnessecary, No problem. So do I
. Just like many things in mods. The mods motives are not necessity.They are making the most fun out of it. Unless what you are going to argue next is that FFH2 was "necessary"...I know I like the concept of Veterancy, as I have imagined it , and I find it very interesting and quite fun.
