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Veterancy

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by megamanx06, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. 1234567890

    1234567890 Warlord

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    The Veteran system comes from Civ2 (or maybe civ1, I don't remember) : when a unit kills another in 1v1 combat, it has 50% chance to become a Veteran (+50% strength). But it was very easy to calculate the combat odds in Civ2 : (Attack+Defense)/Defense, with a few bonuses, and a hitpoint system which prevents a warrior from beating a tank. But if you build the War academy (or something), all of your new units become Veterans, so it's just like the promotion system in Civ4. In Civ3, there are 4 levels instead of 2, but the combat odds are totally messed up (that's why a spearman can beat a modern tank...). In Civ4, this is even more complex with all these promotions. So the Veteran system is just an archaic form of our promotion system.

    DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU...
     
  2. cIV_khanh93

    cIV_khanh93 Prince

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    @ WarKirby when i said "no." I was thinking what 1234567890 said, but i was just to disgusted at the idea to elaborate.
     
  3. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    Hmmm...I'm been thinking some about this - and frankly, I haven't missed the "Veteran concept" at all, in the end it's just another promotion. One that would be yet another promotion that the human's troops have to earn while the AI's able to build stack of Veterans in addition to their multiply promoted new units now. If the AI is NOT given free veteran promotions, then we humans might have the unfair advantage: the first AI stack o' doom gives us all veterans and the AI's second stack (often freshly baked) is at an even greater disadvantage. Not to say, what havoc would be wreaked on peacemongering civs who might not have veterans soon enough.

    Actually, I'd prefer TOOLTIPS on promotions so that I knew what all the symbols meant instantly. Now that would improve the game!
     
  4. zup

    zup Emperor

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    We have promotion tooltips afaik.
     
  5. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I understand that.

    But you should take some time to compose yourself, and try to respond in a more civil manner. Possibly offering adjustments or alternatives. Even just "I don't really think this is a good idea" is a much nicer response.

    I feel a 50% bonus would be laughably overpowered, but I'd say the concept has merit, just requires a little tweaking from how the OP described
     
  6. tipwong

    tipwong Chieftain

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    I do have a question in my mind, it seems that a unit that wins in low odds(<or=50%) would more likely lost in another battle in not too high odds ,shouldn't be the opposite?
     
  7. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    There are no promotion tooltips on enemy units, you can see the symbols but no tooltips. Unless one has memorized hundreds of promotions, one has to look 'em up. It's not crucial most times, but it does help to know what the enemy has. Obviously, your own units when active or with the cursor on them have both the promotion explanations and a tooltips.
     
  8. popejubal

    popejubal Emperor

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    No.
    ten characters
     
  9. 1234567890

    1234567890 Warlord

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    Yes.
    Nine characters
     
  10. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    :sarcasm:I am almost astonished with the creative discussion going on..:p
     
  11. Honor

    Honor Immortal

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    No, you're not.
     
  12. 1234567890

    1234567890 Warlord

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    Yes, he is.
     
  13. Luckmann

    Luckmann Esusian Epicure

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    Lies.
    blargh characters
     
  14. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    The best idea in this thread was brought up by PopeJubal - introduce a series of veterancy promotions that increase strength by 20% each and opens up other promotions.

    I suggest we call these promotions "Combat 1", "Combat 2", "Combat 3", "Combat 4" and "Combat 5".

    [/threadkill]
     
  15. 1234567890

    1234567890 Warlord

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    The promotion system in civ4 IS the veteran system in civ2. It's just just a little more complex.
     
  16. hiphopin

    hiphopin Warlord

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    Here's my 2 cents. I don't understand why a unit who has gone through many battles should have an additional strength bonus than a unit who got training xp, when the veteran unit will already be much more powerful then the latter unit with training xp.

    I think that having a green or unblooded promotion would just overcomplicate the game, and make strong players and warmongerers even more powerful as they attack more, where as defenders will all be much weaker.

    I will say however, that the creme de la creme units that have lasted for hundreds of turns fighting everything, should be given extra special promotion options depending on number of kills.

    For example an Archer who has fought for many a turn and killed 15 units defending, should be given the option of several different promotions, not availible to units of that combat tree without a set ammount of kills. Promotions that give large bonuses, and hopefully promotions that give unique effects.

    This system would make you value your veterans even more, and allow them to live much longer. If each combat tree had several different promotions, each availible at different kill increments such as 15 (for archery tree) or 20 (for melee) kills, and then the next promotion at 30 and 40 respectably. If anyone wants to add to my idea feel free.
     
  17. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Hey, I have an Idea. I'd say that a unit winning a <30% combat odds should get the "heroic" promo. Similar to the one time immortal promo (a la my pheonix feather idea) but in addition to that one time extra life, also automatically raise to the 90% withdrawal threshold (only with the one time promo, lost after death)

    Maybe I've just watched too many Anime's but I like the Idea of powerful heroes coming back to fight again with new henchmen :) I know thats usually just for the plot n whatnot, but I like the concept of large army vs. One guy that knows how to escape tricky situations. As to the "heroic" promotion, I think that a unit with extremely good luck is going to keep having good luck until they lose momentum (lose a battle aka lose withdrawal rate as well)
     
  18. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Ah, Id like to add that I like hiphopin's idea. Once you get a whole lot of experience the rest of the promos are fewer to choose from and all highend units of the same unitclass usually look the same. combat I-V, drill I - IV, commando, maybe blitz, some magic restistance, usually u have to choose either an archer, melee, or horse killer. If I have an overall good unit I'll choose horse kill and fire resist for battling End of Days baddies. Anyways, Id like to think specialty feats or promotions based on kill number could work out nicely.

    Perhaps one called "fine with blood" at 30 kills. Has a 10% chance to cause fear, or has a 10-20% chance to add a "dread" promotion to the unit its attacking, giving that unit weaker strength (-15%) and an extra 10% withdrawal chance maybe. With a duration of maybe 5 turns (in case it escapes, still will be afraid of returning to battle) and possibly removed after a sucessful kill of its own (or maybe not)

    I definitely like somekind of fine with blood premotion or something else to make high-end killers either scary, bad-ass, or monsterlike/evil seeming. Maybe have one at (100 kills?) that is a pretty nice bonus but +1 AC or something. AKA reduces enemy withdrawal rate to 0, called "treacherous tactics".
     
  19. psychodation

    psychodation Chieftain

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    another idea:

    why is it, that troops get the promo I want them to have?
    I dont know how the XP works, and if it is possible to remember these kind of things, BUT:
    a champion who has killed 3 Achers at 30% odds, should get an anti-archer promo (consuming his XP of course), without me being able decide he gets anti-horse.
    Another example: priest kills Hyborem at 20% or less: Instant anti-demon-promo, rest my decision.

    else there should alo be a promo war wearniness: highly decorated veteran for over 50 trns on the frontline without ever being stationed at a city for more than 5 turns or fortified on neutral or own ground for 8 turns should risk some (random) penalty: fear to attack, offensive penalty, ... i dont konw. of course there could be positive veteran promos for fighting in the field, but by random and odds increasing.

    hmmm....
     
  20. megamanx06

    megamanx06 Caswallan

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    I didn't just randomly pick it. I got it from the veterancy thing from the DS civ (I forget the name) and when applied to all units who have seen SERIOUS COMBAT (more on that later), it cancels out, for the most part. And I did mean autopromote, not have it as an option for lvl up.

    And for considering seeing combat, I didn't mean killing animals. I meant combat where you aren't pretty much guarunteed a win. I can see maybe moving it up to 2 combats, or something. but I still think it makes sense.

    No, because a fresh new unit shouldn't be able to wipe out veteran soldiers.

    P.S. thanks for all the ideas guys. Not at all what I expected.
     

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