Vladimir Lenin

Godwynn

March to the Sea
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Greetings,

A thread in Off-Topic got me thinking, was Lenin really that bad? I skimmed his wikipedia page and found the following interesting tidbits:

Lenin's administration was also one of the first governments to decriminalize homosexuality in 1917. The Russian Communist Party effectively legalized no-fault divorce, abortion, and homosexuality, when they abolished said Tsarist laws.

The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants, who were tortured by want, against the Jews. . . . Only the most ignorant and down-trodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. . . . It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism.

He initiated and supervised the realisation of the GOELRO plan (1920), the first Soviet national economic recovery and development project, establishing a free universal health care system, guaranteeing the rights of women, and educating the illiterate Russian people

How successful was Lenin with
1. a free universal health care system
2. guaranteeing the rights of women
3. educating Russians
4. stopping anti-semitism
5. stopping anti-homosexuality

Was he a blood thirsty dictator? Was he going to allow free and open elections? Did he kill "enemies of the workers?"

Basically, I want to know if all I have been told about him is a big lie.

As usual, thanks ahead of time!
 
Lenin was definitely dedicated. And he was a bit of a thinker too. But, don't ever forget he was brutal. I have a first hand account (a journal) of a White Russian who was forced to flee at this time, and the story of his family (specifically, the son's). Lenin's Reds would, quite literally, slaughter entire villages at a time. This is no exaggeration - the person wrote that, one day, he went into the village to sell some of the potato crop. The village was literally not there - it was one smoldering ruin, with the populace slain. His village was targeted next, though he and most of the people were able to escape.

Don't be wrong, Lenin did grant freedoms. But, he only granted those freedoms to loyal, dependable members of the communist party, which was less than 10% of the population. If you weren't in that 10%, you were expected to support the communist party. Any insubordination was punished severely.

Basically, Lenin replaced the Czar's bureaucracy with a new bureaucracy - the Communist Party.

Oh, I would ask the journal writer's son (and his wife) for more information, but they break out into tears at the mere name of Lenin. Literally.
 
Lenin was definitely dedicated. And he was a bit of a thinker too. But, don't ever forget he was brutal. I have a first hand account (a journal) of a White Russian who was forced to flee at this time, and the story of his family (specifically, the son's). Lenin's Reds would, quite literally, slaughter entire villages at a time. This is no exaggeration - the person wrote that, one day, he went into the village to sell some of the potato crop. The village was literally not there - it was one smoldering ruin, with the populace slain. His village was targeted next, though he and most of the people were able to escape.

Don't be wrong, Lenin did grant freedoms. But, he only granted those freedoms to loyal, dependable members of the communist party, which was less than 10% of the population. If you weren't in that 10%, you were expected to support the communist party. Any insubordination was punished severely.

Basically, Lenin replaced the Czar's bureaucracy with a new bureaucracy - the Communist Party.

Oh, I would ask the journal writer's son (and his wife) for more information, but they break out into tears at the mere name of Lenin. Literally.
Dreadnought is pretty correct here. Lenin certainly believed in Communism and attempted to institute many of its positives, such as equality, socialised medicine, etc., making him more than a garden-variety dictator, merely interested in power. The problem is, that if you believe that your ideology is The Truth (tm),whether it be religion, fascism, communism, etc., then it becomes very easy to rationalise extreme brutality to achieve the goals of that ideology. Lenin certainly did so, and while no Stalin, was more than willing to sacrifice the lives of many Russians for The Cause (tm).
 
He killed thousands of political enemies and wantonly massacred anybody with the slightest suspect inclination to non-Marxism, not sparing even children. He was comparable to Robespierre, I'd say, with the exception that his regime didn't collapse immediately after his death, which allowed his reputation to be raised to saintly levels by the Soviet government.
 
He killed thousands of political enemies

Enemies who refused a rather polite invitation to form their own soviets and join the government.

and wantonly massacred anybody with the slightest suspect inclination to non-Marxism, not sparing even children.

[Citation Needed]

He was comparable to Robespierre, I'd say, with the exception that his regime didn't collapse immediately after his death, which allowed his reputation to be raised to saintly levels by the Soviet government.

He was the founding father of the Soviet Republic. Of course he is revered by its citizenry.
 
Lenin is possibly the most progressive figure in Russian history since Peter the Great.
 
How successful was Lenin with
1. a free universal health care system

Sadly, it was not implemented until Stalin's days. The economy was incredibly strained dealing with the Civil War, and he died only three years after it ended. A proto-form of it existed, but nothing formalized and bureaucratized like Stalin would create.

2. guaranteeing the rights of women

Despite a few comparisions to "old women" as being the opposite of the way men should behave, he performed excellently.

3. educating Russians

This was another thing which had to wait for Stalin's bureaucracy. Most of Lenin's period were spent handling the Civil War.
4. stopping anti-semitism

Extremely demoralized elements of the Red Army engaged in small-scale pogroms of sorts, but Lenin was adamantly against anti-Semetism.

5. stopping anti-homosexuality

No clue, actually.

Was he a blood thirsty dictator?

Hardly a dictator, he was elected head of Sovnarkom. And even then he was more of a figurehead and elder statesman, since the real Head of State was the Chairman of the Central Executive Committee of the All-Russian Congress of Soviets, aka Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR.

And bloodthirsty? No more than any other revolutionary fighting a civil war. Much of his hand concerning the Cheka was forced by counterrevolutionaries insisting on blowing up stuff and generally sabotaging everything they could get their hands on.

Was he going to allow free and open elections?

In the early days, they were not a plan but a reality. Menshevik and Right Socialist Revolutionary intransigence ended that pretty quickly. The Left Socialist Revolutionaries and a few other groups stayed on.

Did he kill "enemies of the workers?"

No, he killed enemies of the Revolution.

Basically, I want to know if all I have been told about him is a big lie.

As usual, thanks ahead of time!

No problem. Lenin is one of the most slandered figures in history, much of it undeserved. Much of it is also somewhat dependent on perspective, but the insidious lies about being backed by Reichsmarks are, to quote Trotsky, "the most gigantic slander in world history."
 
Enemies who refused a rather polite invitation to form their own soviets and join the government.

Oh, well I guess that completely justifies it, then?

[Citation Needed]

Perhaps you've heard of the execution of the Romanovs?
 
And bloodthirsty? No more than any other revolutionary fighting a civil war. Much of his hand concerning the Cheka was forced by counterrevolutionaries insisting on blowing up stuff and generally sabotaging everything they could get their hands on.

Even relative to the enormous population of Russia, Lenin was one of the most murderous men to ever live in history. Lenin: A Biography by Robert Service (2000), whose research was derived from the Soviet archives, finds that under Lenin's regime, 4m people were executed, intentionally starved or killed by other means.

No, he killed enemies of the Revolution.

Convenient how "enemies of the Revolution" were defined by the Soviets, then.

No problem. Lenin is one of the most slandered figures in history, much of it undeserved. Much of it is also somewhat dependent on perspective, but the insidious lies about being backed by Reichsmarks are, to quote Trotsky, "the most gigantic slander in world history."

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and assume you're a Marxist yourself?
 
Oh, well I guess that completely justifies it, then?



Perhaps you've heard of the execution of the Romanovs?

Acts of terrorisim were dealt with as they should.

And the Tsar's family scarcely count as innocents. They were part of the problem.
 
Including his children? Pfft.

Yes. The continuation of a the Russian royal line that could claim rightful leadership would be an endemic problem for the Soviets and a rallying symbol for leftover White Army loyalists. Wiping them out was the smart thing to do to secure the Revolution. They were a threat which had to be dispensed with.
 
Yes. The continuation of a the Russian royal line that could claim rightful leadership would be an endemic problem for the Soviets and a rallying symbol for leftover White Army loyalists. Wiping them out was the smart thing to do to secure the Revolution. They were a threat which had to be dispensed with.
I don't disagree from a pragmatic level. Having read my Machiavelli, I'd have done the same thing.

But, come on, how can children "scarcely count as innocents," because "they were part of the problem." They're children. Pretty much the definition of innocent.
 
I don't disagree from a pragmatic level. Having read my Machiavelli, I'd have done the same thing.

But, come on, how can children "scarcely count as innocents," because "they were part of the problem." They're children. Pretty much the definition of innocent.

Better for a few of the Tsars children to die, than allow the continued oppression of the Russian people. They were part of the nobility and the Tsarist regime and would later have taken over, Alexis was groomed to succeed his father. Sometimes noble birth can be a double edged sword it seems. You'll excuse me if I have little to no sympathy for their plight.
 
Better for a few of the Tsars children to die, than allow the continued oppression of the Russian people. They were part of the nobility and the Tsarist regime and would later have taken over, Alexis was groomed to succeed his father. Sometimes noble birth can be a double edged sword it seems. You'll excuse me if I have little to no sympathy for their plight.
Because children would magically be able to oppress the Russian people, despite the success of the revolution in all other respects? After all, those Bourbons are still causing trouble in Spain and France... Um, well, the Habsburgs... How about them Hohenzollerns... Er, no.

Besides that, you're aware that there are still, to this day, pretenders to the Russian throne, and for decades many people believed that Anastasia had survived? Non-communists had rallying cries besides the immediate royal family you know.
 
Because children would magically be able to oppress the Russian people, despite the success of the revolution in all other respects? After all, those Bourbons are still causing trouble in Spain and France... Um, well, the Habsburgs... How about them Hohenzollerns... Er, no.

Besides that, you're aware that there are still, to this day, pretenders to the Russian throne, and for decades many people believed that Anastasia had survived? Non-communists had rallying cries besides the immediate royal family you know.

I think you forget what happened to the Bourbons. It involved a guillotine. Wilhelm fled to the Netherlands and lived in exile and made no attempt to retake his throne. Nor to my knowledge did the Habsburgs.

Poor rallying cries overall nothing compared to what a direct living descendant of the Tsar would have offered.
 
I think you forget what happened to the Bourbons. It involved a guillotine. Wilhelm fled to the Netherlands and lived in exile and made no attempt to retake his throne. Nor to my knowledge did the Habsburgs.

Poor rallying cries overall nothing compared to what a direct living descendant of the Tsar would have offered.
There were plenty of Bourbons alive after the guillotine. Hell, one's in charge of Spain's constitutional monarchy right now. And most revolutions have ended up with the royal family attempting to reassert power. Much of the time they've failed miserably. Bourbons in France, Jacobins in England, etc.. Russia was no different even with the Tsar's immediate family killed. A direct living descendant of the Tsar would have been great for the White Russians, but it doesn't negate the fact that they fought on - and lost - anyway. They almost certainly would have failed miserably with Alexis in St Petersburg sipping wine in a cellar somewhere.

Besides which, if you'd paid a bloody lick of attention to what I've said from the start, my concern is with your claim that the Tsar's children somehow deserved to die, being as they were guilty of the oppression of the Russian people. From a pragmatic standpoint, I'd have hunted down and killed as much of the Romanov family as I could. But that hardly makes the claim "the Tsar's family scarcely counts as innocents" defensible in regards to children.
 
Better for a few of the Tsars children to die, than allow the continued oppression of the Russian people.

I lol'd. Communist morality in action.

Furthermore, the idea that the Tsars were anywhere close to as oppressive as the Soviets is laughable. The most grievous crime of the Empire was the Jewish pogroms, which though terrible and inexcusable, were not even comparable to the crimes against humanity engineered by the U.S.S.R.
 
Oh, well I guess that completely justifies it, then?

Personal ideas of morality aside, yes.

Perhaps you've heard of the execution of the Romanovs?

Perhaps you're aware that Lenin did not, I repeat, did NOT, order their execution? It was a local activist of the Ural Soviet who feared their liberation by the closing Czechoslovak legion. Lenin wanted them kept safe and under house arrest, just as they had been since February.

Even relative to the enormous population of Russia, Lenin was one of the most murderous men to ever live in history. Lenin: A Biography by Robert Service (2000), whose research was derived from the Soviet archives, finds that under Lenin's regime, 4m people were executed, intentionally starved or killed by other means.

Of course people starved, most of the grain-producing areas of Russia were controlled by the Whites! Why do you think grain requisitioning was implemented in the first place?

The number given for executions "by Lenin" (which I assume you mean "by the Cheka," an organ which operated outside the realm of control of really anyone except Dzerzhinsky and even then not all the way, is just over 12,000. I don't give a flying crap what Conquest says.

Also, have you read Service's biography? Or are you quoting someone who is quoting it?

And finally, since when did unintentional starvation count as "murder?" :crazyeye: I suppose Benjamin Harrison deserves to be counted as a mass-murderer too for all those starvation deaths in Texas during the 1890-91 recession?
Convenient how "enemies of the Revolution" were defined by the Soviets, then.

No need to go there, they defined themselves by becoming terrorists and counter-revolutionaries. The Bolsheviks raised revolt in October to deliver power to the Soviet, not to themselves, it was the other parties who were so afraid of commanding real power that they withdrew, and betrayed themselves and their constituents by fighting against the Revolution in its time of greatest struggle with Capital. Such an act can only be expected to have disastrous and brutal consequences.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and assume you're a Marxist yourself?

I am first and foremost a historian, and I do my best to keep my politics out of that discipline. The truth speaks for itself, I merely encourage people to draw conclusions from the real facts, not from some caricature of history.

I lol'd. Communist morality in action.

As a self-righteous paladin of capitalism, you have no moral ground to stand on, much less to rofl from.

Furthermore, the idea that the Tsars were anywhere close to as oppressive as the Soviets is laughable. The most grievous crime of the Empire was the Jewish pogroms, which though terrible and inexcusable, were not even comparable to the crimes against humanity engineered by the U.S.S.R.

You say things like this ,and you expect to be taken seriously? :lmao:

The most grievous crime of the Tsars was its blatant and brutal oppression of all classes of people - including the capitalist bourgeoisie - to perpetuate its own autocracy and further its imperial ambitions, which is among the most terrible of crimes in history, committed by many an autocrat.

Remember that in February the bourgeoisie and proletarians, liberals and socialists and anarchists, fought side by side to rid the nation of absolute monarchy.
 
Personal ideas of morality aside, yes.

Well in that case, let's just canonize Stalin and Mao at the same time -- if we're going down the road of moral relativism, then the topics of "what crimes did person X commit?" are entirely subjective and therefore pointless.

Perhaps you're aware that Lenin did not, I repeat, did NOT, order their execution? It was a local activist of the Ural Soviet who feared their liberation by the closing Czechoslovak legion. Lenin wanted them kept safe and under house arrest, just as they had been since February.

Perhaps, though he didn't condemn Yakov Yurovsky whatsoever (unless you want to count a promotion to a comfortable position as some sort of slap on the wrist).

Of course people starved, most of the grain-producing areas of Russia were controlled by the Whites! Why do you think grain requisitioning was implemented in the first place?

Lenin, as well as Stalin after him, purposefully prevented food distribution from going to areas that he thought was politically rebellious in order to weaken their resolve. This happened after the civil war was over and there was enough food for everybody. (The question remains, though, as to why the Soviet leadership should receive a comfortably nutritious lifestyle if Marxism is intended to be classless. Seems like the very definition of class warfare.)

Also, have you read Service's biography? Or are you quoting someone who is quoting it?

No, I have not read it, and I am indeed basing this citation off of a second-hand source. If I am incorrect or taking it out of its intended context, then please set me straight. If I get the time I will try to acquire the biography and skim through it.

And finally, since when did unintentional starvation count as "murder?"

It doesn't, hence why I purposefully added the word "intentional."

No need to go there, they defined themselves by becoming terrorists and counter-revolutionaries. The Bolsheviks raised revolt in October to deliver power to the Soviet, not to themselves, it was the other parties who were so afraid of commanding real power that they withdrew, and betrayed themselves and their constituents by fighting against the Revolution in its time of greatest struggle with Capital. Such an act can only be expected to have disastrous and brutal consequences.

For one, I see no reason why peaceful opposition to the Reds (not counting the soldiers and terrorists in this category, obviously) should be executed. Are ideas so dangerous? Was freedom too much of a burden for the Soviets? Tell me, was Lenin justified in authorizing the Soviet war against Poland in order to spread the revolution to them? And in this sense, do you deny that Lenin was indeed very similar to Robespierre?

Two, the term "counter-revolutionaries" is irritatingly vague. As Lenin himself admitted that the masses were uselessly uneducated, he could've theoretically defined every single peasant in Russia that didn't initiate their own communions as counter-revolutionary for not being enthusiastic communists. It wasn't useful to his interests to do so, but the point remains. And if you think I'm grasping for straws at this point, I point out that the Soviets had no interest in explicitly defining who exactly their enemies were; probably because that would jeopardize their self-given justifications for their mass executions,

I am first and foremost a historian, and I do my best to keep my politics out of that discipline. The truth speaks for itself, I merely encourage people to draw conclusions from the real facts, not from some caricature of history.

I would respect this statement, if you didn't immediately follow it with:

As a self-righteous paladin of capitalism, you have no moral ground to stand on, much less to rofl from.

I'm not a "paladin of capitalism," nor does that in any way discredit my point. Even many modern Marxists try to draw distance from Leninism because they thought it was a failure, not just capitalism. Beyond that, I'm not even sure I would call myself a capitalist; though I'm certainly not a Marxist.

Does that discredit me? So long as I can reasonably defend my arguments, I see no reason why it does.

The most grievous crime of the Tsars was its blatant and brutal oppression of all classes of people - including the capitalist bourgeoisie - to perpetuate its own autocracy and further its imperial ambitions, which is among the most terrible of crimes in history, committed by many an autocrat.

So exiling people to hellish prisons is not as bad as cementing your own political authority? Fascinating. Though this is a bit beside the point, as I'm curious as to how you can call this a "grievous crime" while defending the Leninists, who did the exact same thing. Perhaps you will quibble about the difference between "imperial ambitions" and "class liberation," though I have difficulty making this distinction, seeing as how Lenin was quite glad to destroy Poland's liberty (which it spent over 100 years trying to acquire) in the interest of his socio-economic goals.

Remember that in February the bourgeoisie and proletarians, liberals and socialists and anarchists, fought side by side to rid the nation of absolute monarchy.

Not necessarily because absolute monarchy is an inherent crime. It could've been because they just really personally despised Nicholas. (I don't blame them.) Not that this was certainly the case, though it might've been.

Nonetheless, the Poles that participated in the several anti-Romanov rebellions probably weren't very happy to be invaded by the Reds, so your point is moot.
 
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