Vox Populi Civilizations Compatibility Request Thread

[pineappledan]

I hadn't looked at the changes from the latest patch until recently, and it has me looking at the balance of the Goths as we have it now:

UA: comparable to Assyria's. Maybe a bit weaker, but way more flexible (Assyrian UA is on the lower side)
UU: unsettled as of now. Let's say comparable to kris swordsman, but currently a weak UU (aiming for it to be weaker than legionary by a bit).
UB: slightly weaker than basilica

All-in all, each part of the civ is slightly below the power curve. We just need 1 or 2 other tweaks to push this to be more balanced
What if the UA also gave all units +1 move on roads?
I am thinking we really do need to move the UB to an earlier tech, to secure that religion. You're right about masonry being too stacked on prod as is, Maybe writing?
currently we have been looking at 'win more' mechanics for the gadrauht, but the UA is already a 'win more' bonus. I think it makes good sense to make the unit more flexible. I like these two ideas the best so far:
verwüsten- 10 damage to adjacent enemy units on attack, +40% against fortified units (melee form of existing splash damage promotion, essentially)
I think we could also give it scavenging (5xp for pillaging), an existing recon unit promotion

 

[Blue Ghost]

+1 move on roads isn't that much of a buff. I think the UU is fine as is. Double heal on pillage can potentially be very powerful.

I'd be fine with putting the UB at writing.

The first idea looks good for the UA. I don't think we need scavenging; we don't want to put too many things on one unit.

 

[pineappledan]

I think the UU is fine as is. Double heal on pillage can potentially be very powerful.

...What does the UU have right now?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Sorry, I mixed up UU and UA in my last post. Oops! I meant to say that the UA is fine as is.

The Hov being unlocked at writing should be okay gameplay-wise, but it feels a bit odd flavor wise. The Goths aren't really known for their writing, and the hov doesn't have much to do with it.

I'd like to re-pitch my idea of the Hov as a barracks replacement, with the same bonuses (+2 Faith, +2 production, extra Faith and production on horses, deer, sheep and cattle, faster unit production). That should solve the issues you brought up. The bonuses are a little light for a temple, but they should be more than enough for an ancient era building. And retaining the faith bonus lets it be relevant toward the religion race.

 

[pineappledan]

Sorry, I mixed up UU and UA in my last post. Oops! I meant to say that the UA is fine as is.

We'll have to see how it fairs. On paper, it seems like it might need a little more oomph, especially with my recommendation for the barracks-hov (see below). adding +1 move when starting on roads would be a small tactical advantage, but it would actually be a nice quality of life thing for workers, since you could move into rough terrain and start an improvement on the same turn.

What promotions are you thinking of giving the UU as of now?

I'd like to re-pitch my idea of the Hov as a barracks replacement, with the same bonuses (+2 Faith, +2 production, extra Faith and production on horses, deer, sheep and cattle, faster unit production). That should solve the issues you brought up. The bonuses are a little light for a temple, but they should be more than enough for an ancient era building. And retaining the faith bonus lets it be relevant toward the religion race.

So a full account of changes to barracks would go like this I suppose. Upgrades from base barracks bolded:

Hov - Barracks replacement
+2 production
+2 faith
+1 prod & +1 faith from horses, cattle, sheep, and deer
+10% production towards land units
+15 unit XP
-10% crime modifier
+2 unit supply cap (up from +1)
no maintenance
unlocked at construction (instead of military theory. This puts it in the prerequisite tech line for the UU)

It seems off to me to have what should be a late Classical/early medieval civ get their UB in the Ancient Era. It's not unreasonable though, the Hov hearkens back to their pagan, Scandinavian origins, and fits well enough for gameplay.

Does having a barracks replacement which doesn't give a unique promotion (like Ikanda or Dojo) feel right to you? Maybe moving the double pillage onto barracks would fix that without really changing anything in gameplay. It's not like you wouldn't be building these in every town, and you wouldn't be doing much pillaging before barracks anyways.

Without giving it it's own promotion, the hov looks to me like it's about on-level with the Ikanda. The unique promotion would push it over. The Impi is crazy-good though, so it's not a big deal if our UB is the best thing about the Goths.

 

[Blue Ghost]

We'll have to see how it fairs. On paper, it seems like it might need a little more oomph, especially with my recommendation for the barracks-hov (see below). adding +1 move when starting on roads would be a small tactical advantage, but it would actually be a nice quality of life thing for workers, since you could move into rough terrain and start an improvement on the same turn.

Sure, I wouldn't mind that.

What promotions are you thinking of giving the UU as of now?

How does Drill I, +50% damage against fortified units, and -25% damage taken from cities sound?

So a full account of changes to barracks would go like this I suppose. Upgrades from base barracks bolded:

Hov - Barracks replacement
+2 production
+2 faith
+1 prod & +1 faith from horses, cattle, sheep, and deer
+10% production towards land units
+15 unit XP
-10% crime modifier
+2 unit supply cap (up from +1)
no maintenance
unlocked at construction (instead of military theory. This puts it in the prerequisite tech line for the UU)

It seems off to me to have what should be a late Classical/early medieval civ get their UB in the Ancient Era. It's not unreasonable though, the Hov hearkens back to their pagan, Scandinavian origins, and fits well enough for gameplay.

That looks pretty good. I don't think it's necessary to move it to Construction. The bonus to horses does encourage you to field a mounted army, so Military Theory is still an important tech. But I wouldn't mind moving it either.

Does having a barracks replacement which doesn't give a unique promotion (like Ikanda or Dojo) feel right to you? Maybe moving the double pillage onto barracks would fix that without really changing anything in gameplay. It's not like you wouldn't be building these in every town, and you wouldn't be doing much pillaging before barracks anyways.

Without giving it it's own promotion, the hov looks to me like it's about on-level with the Ikanda. The unique promotion would push it over. The Impi is crazy-good though, so it's not a big deal if our UB is the best thing about the Goths.

The gameplay difference is minimal, so it comes down to aesthetics. Personally, I prefer it on the UA, because it folds neatly into the rest of the UA combat bonuses, and the UB already has enough going on. There's no hard and fast rule that says that a unique barracks needs to give a promotion.

 

[pineappledan]

Okay, so this looks like the final version then?

UA: Sackers of Rome - On capturing a city, 1 population is added to the Goth's capital for every 2 population lost by the captured city.
All land units can use enemy roads, have +1[MOVE_ICON] on roads and pillaging non-road improvements heals double.
Capturing an original foreign[ICON_CAPITAL] capital triggers a [ICON_GOLDEN_AGE]golden age.

UU: Gadrauht - Swordsman replacement
17 combat strength
'Drill I' & 'Shock I' promotions
'Foederati' promotion (+50% vs fortified units and -25% damage from cities)
Can pillage enemy tiles
unlocked at Iron Working

UB: Hov - Barracks replacement
+2 production
+2 faith
+1 prod & +1 faith from horses, cattle, sheep, and deer
+10% production towards land units
+15 unit XP
-10% crime modifier
+2 unit supply cap
no maintenance
unlocked at Military Theory

I like the +dmg on fortified, since that counters legionnaire's pilum. If you wanted to make a more full counter, you could make the gadrauht heal 10hp on attack.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That looks pretty good! I'm currently working on/testing the next civ in Vicevirtuoso's Madoka Magica series (do check it out if you're so inclined), but I'll do the Goths after that. No guarantees on timeframe, but I'll be aiming to have it in a few weeks. Also, I reserve the right to make any necessary changes to the specs during the modding process.

 

[X_BriX]

That looks pretty good! I'm currently working on/testing the next civ in Vicevirtuoso's Madoka Magica series (do check it out if you're so inclined), but I'll do the Goths after that. No guarantees on timeframe, but I'll be aiming to have it in a few weeks. Also, I reserve the right to make any necessary changes to the specs during the modding process.

Thanks!

 

[Blue Ghost]

So, update. I am currently in the middle of coding the Goths. Turns out that there's no easy way to get the population lost by a city to add to the capital during conquest. So I'm replacing the first part of the UA with 'Gain Faith, Gold and Production in the Capital whenever you capture a city or barbarian encampment.' Objections?

 

[pineappledan]

I've been tinkering on my own time with Tomatekh's Sumer mod, sort of as a learning experience. CBP broke the ChangePopulation() command in .lua, so in order to give the free pop I've had to use Trait_YieldFromSettle to give food instead. CBP does add a Population yield, but I have tried it as a yield on settle and it doesn't seem to actually do anything, other than tell you that 2 new citizens were earned.... somewhere.

Could you do something similar, ie. set up a Yield_Population on CityConquestYields, then adjust the yield amount in a .lua, based on the conquered city's size

Alternatively, the existing CBP Futurism yields tourism based on city size (population), using a ConquerorYield. Perhaps you can make this into a trait yielding food instead of tourism?

<!-- POLICY: Allows you to define a yield that is calculated (per population) for a city when it is captured. The yield is doubled for capitals.-->
<Table name="Policy_ConquerorYield">
<Column name="PolicyType" type="text" reference="Policies(Type)"/>
<Column name="YieldType" type="integer" reference="Yields(Type)"/>
<Column name="Yield" type="integer" default="0"/>

 

[Blue Ghost]

ConquerorYield is what I'm using right now, with Production, Faith and Gold. It's a simple solution that encourages bigger conquests. I could do Food instead of Production if it fits better.

 

[pineappledan]

I just realized that's the exact same as spain's Reconquista UA (Faith and food on founding AND conquering cities)... I've never played CBP Spain so it didn't occur to me, but yeah, that's REALLY close to Spain's. While the Goths are technically the proto-Spanish kingdom, I don't think it's a good idea to mirror another civ that closely.

I don't know, to be honest, how do you balance what's possible, what's unique, and what makes sense?

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think I'll stick with Production, Gold and Faith. Spain's unique is Food and Faith, so there's not that much overlap.

 

[pineappledan]

I meant more that instant yields on conquest weren't going to alter playstyle or help the Goths "feel" unique. I agree that we need something to trigger on city captures as a soft bonus for things other than capitals, but yields field cookie-cutter

10 turns WLTKD?
15XP per unit, globally?
2% reduced policy cost (max 20%)

My idea of a free policy on capturing a capital might be good too. Really make that capital a big prize

 

[Blue Ghost]

5 turns golden age on capturing a city, and a free policy on capturing a capital?

 

[pineappledan]

I'd match it with whatever the duration is on the aztec trigger, which I believe is the full 10.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'd match it with whatever the duration is on the aztec trigger, which I believe is the full 10.

The Goths' playstyle would be wars of conquest, which usually involve taking more than one city. Making the duration shorter encourages more all-out wars. And I think getting free social policies is a strong enough ability that the golden age duration can be shorter to make up for it.

 

[pineappledan]

Oh sorry, I misread the previous one. I read that as 5 GA turns and policy, both on capital. I thought we were still looking for a third, minor reward on normal cities. Sure that's fine

 

[Blue Ghost]

And the Goths have been completed!

I didn't run through a full game with them, but went through the classical era, which gives a good feel for their UA, UU and UB. Playing on the Large Earth map with TSL, successfully conquered Rome on turn 125. Managed to do so without any siege weaponry, relying only on the Gadrauht and horsemen. Rome was a bit behind in tech, so didn't get to see any Gadrauht vs. Legion battles, unfortunately.

Please let me know if there's any bugs I missed, or any other thoughts you have. I'll want to add support for Enginseer's Community Events eventually as well.