Vox Populi very very hard after update?

[Enrico Swagolo]

Calling someone as ******* is criticizing their behavior.

Aha, so I CAN insult people of other races, beliefs, whatever with slurs and sex and say I'm criticising their behaviour with my insult and it'll be all okay and forgiven, or is such a privilege only reserved to people of your beliefs? Will I also be the epitome of kindness, decency and respect then just like you are?

Most of the time when people complain about having to be PC, they are wanting to be able to mock people for who they are, to make sexist, racist, homophobic 'jokes.' No hypocrisy at all.And who do you think I'm 'virtue signaling' for? I'm on a gamer forum, I don't expect the majority to agree with me.

You are generalising and insulting quite a big group of people, in fact everyone who disagrees with you. Are you unable to see how hypocritical that is of someone who claimed to be for "kindness, decency, and respect", or are you propagating virtues while not having a single one of them?

LOL at citing a Jordan Peterson video tho. There's no one who whines about having their safe spaces disturbed more than right wing gamers. The whole gamergate movement is solely about how much gamers don't like having in women in their precious space.

Hahaha, I still remember after Trump's election leftists going to decorate safe spaces with puppies and COLOURING BOOKS and you want to pretend right wingers are the ones who want safe spaces? Seriously, how full of kindness your posts are. From someone who apparently expects so much good behaviour of others, I was expecting to set an example by his being which you clearly do not. I wanted real Gandhi, but you gave me the one with the nukes.

 

[Aristos]

OK, points have been made and I think it is pretty clear who thinks what and who is who. All I wanted is express my strong opposition to contaminating this mod with the type of "view" I summarily categorized as PC (assuming the interpretation was clear enough).

Bottom line, I would leave the diff levels labels as they are, and yes, leave VP as hard as possible.

Let's go back to the original discussion.

 

[civplayer33]

Yeah I definitely agree that VP should be extremely hard at the highest level; not for my sake, but for the people who really want an almost impossible challenge. I think 8 difficulty levels give enough granularity to deliver a good experience to anyone who gives it their best shot.
Notice how Soren_L didn't try to play on Settler to learn the game first...there's that ego again it seems, which I think is a pretty good example for why renaming the difficulties could help a lot of players "save face" to themselves.

I'm fine with the labels staying as they are and I still think we'll never agree on what the new labels should be but I think there's some sense in picking new ones. I'll just throw my aristocratic list out there again :

Count
Duke
King
Emperor
Immortal
Demigod
Deity
THE FATHER

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Marketing? This is not a product on sale. I cannot talk for Gazebo, but as far as I understand, this all started with the idea of making the AI better (already an "elitist" goal for PCers). He recently stated that he wants Deity to be basically unbeatable, which tends to confirm his vision for his mod. Nowhere can I find a reference from the mod owner to a goal that even gets close to "making his mod more popular" or something like that...

There is no market here, simply because he is not selling anything, and on top of that, he is not even trying to make his mod for the "masses".

Oh, and no, someone new to Civ should not be able to come to VP and play it and win. He should be defeated in the first 50 turns. That is the whole idea.

OK so the mod is not for mass market (don't get on Firaxis for dumbing down the game, they are trying to sell it to a mass market). I was still playing Civ IV when this mod was first being conceived so I was not involved in initial design discussions. I guess I'm asking who is the target audience for the mod. According to you it's the advance players who found BNW to easy and simple.

Also take a marketing class you will find out the same principles work the same for profit and not for profit. Look over at the Source Forge all their software is free to use, yet most groups are into promoting their software to get more users.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm mostly against the changes to difficulty names, but at the same time I don't really care much. It's because on one hand it's how they always were called and it'll disorient me for some time, but on the other I thought the same way about policy tree names and I got used to them, so I guess it's just not important to me. I just pick Emperor and maybe repick it every patch iteration if it un-selects itself, which it doesn't.

 

[ashendashin]

OK, points have been made and I think it is pretty clear who thinks what and who is who. All I wanted is express my strong opposition to contaminating this mod with the type of "view" I summarily categorized as PC (assuming the interpretation was clear enough).

Bottom line, I would leave the diff levels labels as they are, and yes, leave VP as hard as possible.

Let's go back to the original discussion.

Scooter pushed for a tutorial and a difficulty to recommend after taking it for those who are totally new. I don't see how that's a bad idea at all. VP won't suddenly stop being hard as they go through the difficulty levels figuring out the game. It'll make entry easier for those who feel overwhelmed by an overhaul or don't even understand the most fundamental aspects of Civ.
As for the new difficulty levels and renaming of old ones, I'm not against it. There's plenty of difficulties already, but in the absence of a tutorial, something to bring things in line with vanilla expectations might help those hapless fools wandering into G's maw.
Besides, the issue of big jumps between difficulties has often been raised in the past.

 

[ElliotS]

How many players do still say Honor policies

I thought the same way about policy tree names and I got used to them

Yeah, none as far as I can tell. I literally forgot it used to be called honor.

Is that case in point?

 

[ElliotS]

@Gazebo to get this discussion back on track, are you open to the idea of changing difficulty names?

 

[Gazebo]

I don’t really care about difficulty names. And I reallly hate this conversation. In my opinion you’re all being snotty. Being PC or not being PC is an inane distinction that no one really cares about outside of those arguing.

G

 

[ashendashin]

I don’t really care about difficulty names. And I reallly hate this conversation. In my opinion you’re all being snotty. Being PC or not being PC is an inane distinction that no one really cares about outside of those arguing.

G

What do you think about a tutorial though? Doubt it was reasonable a year ago with all the changes, but now that you're finalizing VP, shouldn't a scenario like that be possible?

 

[ryanmusante]

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t really care about difficulty names. And I reallly hate this conversation. In my opinion you’re all being snotty.

Thank god someone else said it...

Between this and the whole marbozir debacle a few weeks back. There's too much looking down one's nose happening for my taste. We've got to be classier than this

 

[Gazebo]

What do you think about a tutorial though? Doubt it was reasonable a year ago with all the changes, but now that you're finalizing VP, shouldn't a scenario like that be possible?

The in-game tutorial is hard-locked to existing stuff. @JFD was working on a system for his own uses some time ago, I don't know how it panned out. Someday I'm going to (surprise) do an LP so you can all swoon to my voice as we tackle VP on a stream.

G

 

[Aristos]

snot·ty
ˈsnädē/
adjective
informal

1. 1.
   full of or covered with nasal mucus.

That is not PC.




(although, now that I think of it... how the heck did you know??? I just mowed my lawn, and the grass was so tall and thick, that it gave me a violent nasal allergic reaction... so I am literally covered with nasal mucus).

You really have the crystal ball, haven't you?

 

[ashendashin]

The in-game tutorial is hard-locked to existing stuff. @JFD was working on a system for his own uses some time ago, I don't know how it panned out. Someday I'm going to (surprise) do an LP so you can all swoon to my voice as we tackle VP on a stream.

G

What about the scenario system? Could point people to it easily enough.

 

[Gazebo]

snot·ty
ˈsnädē/
adjective
informal

1. 1.
   full of or covered with nasal mucus.

That is not PC.




(although, now that I think of it... how the heck did you know??? I just mowed my lawn, and the grass was so tall and thick, that it gave me a violent nasal allergic reaction... so I am literally covered with nasal mucus).

You really have the crystal ball, haven't you?

On a scale of not-helpful to helpful, you're not-helpful right now.

What about the scenario system? Could point people to it easily enough.

What about it? Without the ability to tell the players things (look at this! look at that!) it'd be a tutorial-via-insinuation. Not exactly a great tutorial).

G

 

[Aristos]

On a scale of not-helpful to helpful, you're not-helpful right now.
G

Humor is always helpful.

 

[ashendashin]

What about it? Without the ability to tell the players things (look at this! look at that!) it'd be a tutorial-via-insinuation. Not exactly a great tutorial).

I never tried the scenarios, so I thought they'd be more open to the concept. Nevertheless, it might work by using a number of scenarios with different objectives to learn VPs features. Could be a fun way to keep new users interested by not having them play regular full games while not having any idea what they're doing. There's also the events pop-ups that might help with that.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

The in-game tutorial is hard-locked to existing stuff. @JFD was working on a system for his own uses some time ago, I don't know how it panned out. Someday I'm going to (surprise) do an LP so you can all swoon to my voice as we tackle VP on a stream.

G

It figures, Firaxis also screwed up the tutorial in Civ6.

 

[JFD]

The in-game tutorial is hard-locked to existing stuff. @JFD was working on a system for his own uses some time ago, I don't know how it panned out. Someday I'm going to (surprise) do an LP so you can all swoon to my voice as we tackle VP on a stream.

G

Still going, but completion got bogged down by a total re-write of JFDLC for performance and QoL. However, it should be ready quite soon, as filling out my own Tutorials are the last thing I need to do before starting to re-release JFDLC, and I've recently fixed the one major issue I was having trouble with (queuing tutorials). It'll need some pressure testing from there, so I'll eviscerate it from JFDLC and pass it along as a separate mod, until its in such a state that you might be confident to integrate it into VP (or just leave it as a separate, installable mod; whichever suits).