The free settler and worker are comparable bonuses to the extra wonder or melee unit production from tradition/honour (and about as good as a free GG or legalism). The two really powerful policies are the finisher (a free great person?!) and meritocracy, which is valuable regardless of how dominant you are.
Wainy's Let's Play Deity - The Generic Conquest Victory
- Thread starter w a i n y
- Start date
The free settler and worker are comparable bonuses to the extra wonder or melee unit production from tradition/honour (and about as good as a free GG or legalism). The two really powerful policies are the finisher (a free great person?!) and meritocracy, which is valuable regardless of how dominant you are.
Noted. You'll like the next one, where I analyse where I went wrong and try to remedy it. Honestly though, I'm getting a bit tired of all the criticism - not just from you, of course. As you'll see, this is a nice strategy, with a few tweaks. And of course, it will work without fail on every level below deity, and the great library is considered shiny for a reason, &c, &c...
I've mentioned this myself on previous occasions - or at least I hope so! It's certainly occurred to me.
Criticizing me for reloading is not constructive. Saying I'm just chasing after the 'shiny' Great Library is not constructive either, since we all know how powerful it actually is.
I only had six turns to defend myself from when they declared war, from the other side of the map, until I was totally wiped out. Even if I had researched archery and rush-bought an archer, it would not have made any difference. I had a limited number of spots to shoot from since I had all rough terrain behind my city, and we saw how effective the scout-archer I brought over turned out to be. No, there was no way I could have defended myself unless I totally gave up on the Great Library and went for archery well before they declared war, potentially setting myself way back on getting Longswords, as well as producing a couple of warriors beforehand. Even then, it might not have been enough.
Also, I could not likely have defended myself in that situation, even if I had started teching towards archery the moment Japan declared war. I don't think I had enough money to buy units anyways!
Optional
Deity
You also upload when things didn't go well, which should be applauded.
And you try to explain why you do things, which will help other players.
The school teacher that messes up is an easy target, I guess. I hope you stick to your style, though.
And most criticism is just people having an opinion, I don't think you need to defend yourself against everything.
Please go on.
You also upload when things didn't go well, which should be applauded.
And you try to explain why you do things, which will help other players.
The school teacher that messes up is an easy target, I guess. I hope you stick to your style, though.
And most criticism is just people having an opinion, I don't think you need to defend yourself against everything.
Please go on.
Thanks for the encouragement.
You also upload when things didn't go well, which should be applauded.
And you try to explain why you do things, which will help other players.
The school teacher that messes up is an easy target, I guess. I hope you stick to your style, though.
And most criticism is just people having an opinion, I don't think you need to defend yourself against everything.
Please go on.
I agree 100%. I actually thought it was way cool that he didn't reload. - You learn as much from the mistakes as you do from the successes!
jega001
Chieftain
These are just my thoughts at the moment. I'm saying to form a discussion that's all and please pick them apart. I hope we'll all learn something and be better for it after.
"I didn't have enough warriors and I didn't have enough gold to upgrade them" I agree. Now why was this. Your cap start was a fairly strong Strategic Resource rich start and you did had a double lux start extending into the third ring. You only had one copy of the Marble and two copy's of the Spices. You didn't get Masonry up earlier though with your tech path I understand and relatively agree with your timing on Masonry. Could Masonry have been teched up earlier, sure, would you have won the game if you had no, that wasn't a game breaker. The spices though, calender luxuries were never teched and worked. Had that been done you you would not deprive yourself of 480 gold every 30 turns. Had that been teched before the push to iron working and Masonry you could have had 960 gold over 60 turns. That's considerable. Unfortunately the Mongols had spices I believe, but looking at it from a generic game play where a second civ possibly would not have had spices that's considerable and even if they had just selling it to one civ, that's 480 over 60 turns.
You also mentioned you probably should not have settled closer to Polynesia. I'd agree with this for two reasons. One it very well may have delayed the DoW. Second I agree with this because i'd rather have seen you place your second city north into the desert. Why do I say this; north into the desert cost could have given you 2 additional Iron bringing your total to 8 which is plenty for a LS rush, there is also 2 additional spices possibly three in a third ring depending on the placement but at least 2, a cattle, a sheep, a fish, and an Ivory out in that little cute island. Additionally it would give you a coastal city with access to what appears to be the true ocean which is fairly critical in a Continents map. North seamed to have good production which is necessary, and that ivory would bring you up to 3 unique luxurys eventually in your own lands. Settling down in the spot you did for the 6 iron wasn't necessary with 6 in your capitals second ring.
Another thing I notice in your games including the Ottomans game your currently doing quite well in, is a lack of workers. I'm not necessarily saying steal one from a CS though that would probably be in my opinion the best option but you have a lot of tiles to improve, a lot of tiles you didn't improve in your previous Polynesians DoW game, and these tiles would connect you to Luxuries to sell earlier, and improve your Production which would help with a wonder rush ie. GL though you were able to get it in your current game which by your own admission was a tad bit lucky.
As to previous games in this LP series, if you get DoW'ed in the mid 20's ie. Japan which you didn't do an early tech to archery...Your screwed. That's Deity. That's fair, that's the Deity games we all play. I'd have probably gone into Archery in your current game as soon as I saw Monty was your closest neighbor. He luckily got a little tied up with Persia giving you time to get your LS's up and running which tends to also be characteristic of Monty. He will early DoW most if not all of his neighbors if the great majority of Deity games just because he can not because its a good idea. In Deity games it is usually in my opinion a good idea to work Archery in to your early tech priorities unless your in a truly isolated start to get just a couple Archers out there. Two Archers can defend against almost every early rush especially with defensible terrain. I'd have liked to see your Polynesian game where you settled your second city in place and had two archers to defend against the rush. They only seamed to come at you with 4 Warriors and 3 Archers and I bet you could have stoped their advance and defended the city.
These are just my thoughts at the moment. One more thought; Rick Mercers, Talking to Americans...Gold. As an American, some of those are just Gold. lol
"I didn't have enough warriors and I didn't have enough gold to upgrade them" I agree. Now why was this. Your cap start was a fairly strong Strategic Resource rich start and you did had a double lux start extending into the third ring. You only had one copy of the Marble and two copy's of the Spices. You didn't get Masonry up earlier though with your tech path I understand and relatively agree with your timing on Masonry. Could Masonry have been teched up earlier, sure, would you have won the game if you had no, that wasn't a game breaker. The spices though, calender luxuries were never teched and worked. Had that been done you you would not deprive yourself of 480 gold every 30 turns. Had that been teched before the push to iron working and Masonry you could have had 960 gold over 60 turns. That's considerable. Unfortunately the Mongols had spices I believe, but looking at it from a generic game play where a second civ possibly would not have had spices that's considerable and even if they had just selling it to one civ, that's 480 over 60 turns.
You also mentioned you probably should not have settled closer to Polynesia. I'd agree with this for two reasons. One it very well may have delayed the DoW. Second I agree with this because i'd rather have seen you place your second city north into the desert. Why do I say this; north into the desert cost could have given you 2 additional Iron bringing your total to 8 which is plenty for a LS rush, there is also 2 additional spices possibly three in a third ring depending on the placement but at least 2, a cattle, a sheep, a fish, and an Ivory out in that little cute island. Additionally it would give you a coastal city with access to what appears to be the true ocean which is fairly critical in a Continents map. North seamed to have good production which is necessary, and that ivory would bring you up to 3 unique luxurys eventually in your own lands. Settling down in the spot you did for the 6 iron wasn't necessary with 6 in your capitals second ring.
Another thing I notice in your games including the Ottomans game your currently doing quite well in, is a lack of workers. I'm not necessarily saying steal one from a CS though that would probably be in my opinion the best option but you have a lot of tiles to improve, a lot of tiles you didn't improve in your previous Polynesians DoW game, and these tiles would connect you to Luxuries to sell earlier, and improve your Production which would help with a wonder rush ie. GL though you were able to get it in your current game which by your own admission was a tad bit lucky.
As to previous games in this LP series, if you get DoW'ed in the mid 20's ie. Japan which you didn't do an early tech to archery...Your screwed. That's Deity. That's fair, that's the Deity games we all play. I'd have probably gone into Archery in your current game as soon as I saw Monty was your closest neighbor. He luckily got a little tied up with Persia giving you time to get your LS's up and running which tends to also be characteristic of Monty. He will early DoW most if not all of his neighbors if the great majority of Deity games just because he can not because its a good idea. In Deity games it is usually in my opinion a good idea to work Archery in to your early tech priorities unless your in a truly isolated start to get just a couple Archers out there. Two Archers can defend against almost every early rush especially with defensible terrain. I'd have liked to see your Polynesian game where you settled your second city in place and had two archers to defend against the rush. They only seamed to come at you with 4 Warriors and 3 Archers and I bet you could have stoped their advance and defended the city.
These are just my thoughts at the moment. One more thought; Rick Mercers, Talking to Americans...Gold. As an American, some of those are just Gold. lol
RedRover57
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,014
Polynesia had more than 4 warriors and 3 archers in that rush. I'm not sure that he could have done much of anything to stop that. It's possible I guess, but it would have totally thrown him off of his desired goal. I think this is the most dangerous situation on Deity, when you have a close neighbor that only has you for a border and also has some space for an early unchecked REX. They become too powerful too quickly. It was pretty clear that he had his eye on the prize (Wainy's head) from turn one. It was a little surprising to me because I thought that he usually sends quite a few units out exploring overseas. I certainly didn't expect to see that large of an attacking force.
As you mention Monty is usually less of a threat, particularly if you are not his only neighbor, because he tends to just DoW everyone indiscriminately. This weakens him enough to not be an issue as long as you have a minimal defense. Oda is the most dangerous early rusher because of his UA. Even if all of his warriors get hurt they can do serious damage.
Nice strategy and playing in this final attempt. Did you check to see how strong Alex is? He could be a problem later if he is in a spot where he can REX quickly without much competition and becomes a runaway. Is he at war with the Incas? He is another civ that usually worries me.
As you mention Monty is usually less of a threat, particularly if you are not his only neighbor, because he tends to just DoW everyone indiscriminately. This weakens him enough to not be an issue as long as you have a minimal defense. Oda is the most dangerous early rusher because of his UA. Even if all of his warriors get hurt they can do serious damage.
Nice strategy and playing in this final attempt. Did you check to see how strong Alex is? He could be a problem later if he is in a spot where he can REX quickly without much competition and becomes a runaway. Is he at war with the Incas? He is another civ that usually worries me.
Don't worry, I'm not going to spazz! These are all good points and very 'constructive'.
Yup. I think I mentioned I should have gone calendar right after writing. Then I'd go IW and then masonry.
I suppose you're right, but the extra 4 might have been useful later. I suppose I should have settled in my second city's spot after I took out Polynesia, to get ready for a treb rush on Genghis.
The reason I had to get lucky was more that I had to (or decided, prudently, to) build an extra warrior for defense. I doubt an extra worker would have mattered. And you're right, I perhaps should have stolen a worker. At the very least, I'll build one more once I'm done the 2 workshops. The rest I can steal from conquer-ees.
I'm going to agree with RedRover on this one. Your cities are so weak early on, and the AIs come on so fast (both Japan and Polynesia) that even if you have enough ranged attackers to kill everyone within a few turns, it's often not possible to do it quickly enough to save the city. I could only have saved the city with multiple swordsmen. Any archers not in the city would have been crushed by the horseman. Archers really suck as defenders outside of a city, and teching calendar instead of archery would have given me the ability to buy a few warriors and upgrade to swords, which are much more useful.
I'll check in the next video. Interesting point about Japan. Facing him, archers probably work better. On the other hand, I had very few places to shoot from since my city was on a hill and surrounded by rough terrain, both of which obscure archers' sight.
How do you know about this? I agree, it is fantastic!
carbontaxes
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2011
- Messages
- 36
Ah but Wainy did you not conclude that Trebs totally suck in your Baby2lon game when you were fighting Mecca? The only value of Trebs is actually the faster (cheaper) production while waiting on Chemistry to spending 
to upgrade them to Cannons?
to upgrade them to Cannons?Ah but Wainy did you not conclude that Trebs totally suck in your Baby2lon game when you were fighting Mecca? The only value of Trebs is actually the faster (cheaper) production while waiting on Chemistry to spending
Yes, but remember, that was because they had a really strong city (with Oligarchy, I wonder?) and a camel archer inside as well. If you bring a bunch along and face a less ranged-unit-oriented civ, I think they'd be fine. Certainly I wouldn't knock 16+30% vs cities (is that right?) when compared to the 16 strength of a generic longsword.
Optional
Deity
From what I've seen, the AI is very strict in dividing the tasks: scouts for scouting, warriors for war. It doesn't send out warriors for scouting duties. If you see AI warriors far from home, then pretty sure they're up to something.
And AI scouts never seem to be up for anything else but scouting. They don't even pinch your worker when they easily could.
Schalke 04
Knappe
Hi Wainy!
You attacked Monty's city (Tlaxcala) with your Longswords from 3 attacking spots. Two of them had a farm improvement. You had full two movement points before you attacked the city. In this case I normally pillage the farms before attacking, you don't lose a turn by doing that. It's not just for the gold you get for pillaging, but to delay a new puppet's growth rate. Since you will do a lot of more conquering this can help a little bit with happiness. Especially cities with low pop don't need much to grow. Any kind of "anti food trick" can help here
Nice videos so far. I watched most of your vids and enjoyed them. Keep up the good work and don't let you bother by some random barbs, ehm trolls
You attacked Monty's city (Tlaxcala) with your Longswords from 3 attacking spots. Two of them had a farm improvement. You had full two movement points before you attacked the city. In this case I normally pillage the farms before attacking, you don't lose a turn by doing that. It's not just for the gold you get for pillaging, but to delay a new puppet's growth rate. Since you will do a lot of more conquering this can help a little bit with happiness. Especially cities with low pop don't need much to grow. Any kind of "anti food trick" can help here
Nice videos so far. I watched most of your vids and enjoyed them. Keep up the good work and don't let you bother by some random barbs, ehm trolls
Hi Wainy!
You attacked Monty's city (Tlaxcala) with your Longswords from 3 attacking spots. Two of them had a farm improvement. You had full two movement points before you attacked the city. In this case I normally pillage the farms before attacking, you don't lose a turn by doing that. It's not just for the gold you get for pillaging, but to delay a new puppet's growth rate. Since you will do a lot of more conquering this can help a little bit with happiness. Especially cities with low pop don't need much to grow. Any kind of "anti food trick" can help here
True enough, though I don't mind having a few extra pop early on - the extra science from the first puppet is a fairly substantial fraction of the total. But you're right, I'll try it in future.
i just finished my math assignments for this month
and i plan to take the rest of today off before i start my english asignments
so if you could please post some more videos
regarding the good start comments, when i play deity i reroll untill i get a good start, so personally i prefer to watch games with a good start
to see someone with a really crappy start do a lot better than i do with a good start, would just make me feel more like a noob than i am
,
and i plan to take the rest of today off before i start my english asignments
so if you could please post some more videos
regarding the good start comments, when i play deity i reroll untill i get a good start, so personally i prefer to watch games with a good start
to see someone with a really crappy start do a lot better than i do with a good start, would just make me feel more like a noob than i am
,
JamesCivFan
King
Wainy, do you have the initial save of the Japanese attack, because I want to try something specific to see if that will stop them from attacking? If it works I'll tell you.
The Pilgrim
Deity
The commentaries are hilarious. Something I wanted to say for a while. You're by far the most entertaining active LP's host. Hopefully quill18 will be back soon to give you competition. You two should open CCC together (civvers comedy club 
).
You were playing according to well polished pre-made strategy rather than reacting to what's happening around and got punished. Showed more flexibility and willingness to abandon the initial plan in order to adapt and got rewarded by lucky late GL. I might start believing in karma.
).You were playing according to well polished pre-made strategy rather than reacting to what's happening around and got punished. Showed more flexibility and willingness to abandon the initial plan in order to adapt and got rewarded by lucky late GL. I might start believing in karma.
i just finished my math assignments for this month
and i plan to take the rest of today off before i start my english asignments
so if you could please post some more videos
Not to fear, I'm starting an upload right now. (Though it might not be up for another few hours).
Unfortunately not. This did remind me to get the starting autosave for the current game, which I'll post once the LP is finished. (No initial warrrior and settler move, even!)
The commentaries are hilarious. Something I wanted to say for a while. You're by far the most entertaining active LP's host. Hopefully quill18 will be back soon to give you competition. You two should open CCC together (civvers comedy club
You were playing according to well polished pre-made strategy rather than reacting to what's happening around and got punished. Showed more flexibility and willingness to abandon the initial plan in order to adapt and got rewarded by lucky late GL. I might start believing in karma.
Well thank you for the compliment! I'm not sure I agree with your karmic analysis, but I think your point about adaptation is quite valid.
grandad1982
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2007
- Messages
- 2,552
The commentaries are hilarious. Something I wanted to say for a while. You're by far the most entertaining active LP's host. Hopefully quill18 will be back soon to give you competition. You two should open CCC together (civvers comedy club
You were playing according to well polished pre-made strategy rather than reacting to what's happening around and got punished. Showed more flexibility and willingness to abandon the initial plan in order to adapt and got rewarded by lucky late GL. I might start believing in karma.
Not sure quill18 will do another civ5 LP or if he does it won't be for a while. He wants to concentrate on shorter LPs like his Tropico 3 LP. Says that he gets more enjoyment from them.
