Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)
- Thread starter Doshin
- Start date
@bhavv
We argued a little bit about Xbowmen in the Cho-Ko-Nu thread, but I'm going to put my foot down here and insist that the Engineering beeline is unnecessary for this situation.
My reasoning:
War Elephant = Strength 8 (+50% vs. Mounted Units) for 60
Crossbowman = Strength 6 (+50% vs. Melee Units) for 60
The former has a base strength of 8, the latter a base strength of 6. Crossbowmen receive Protective promotions, but this doesn't bridge the gap between the two units. The most dangerous units I faced in my game were Germany's War Elephants, and to deal with this you want War Elephants of your own.
True, the Crossbowman gets +50% vs. Melee units. But here you have the Hwacha.
Hwacha = Strength 5 (+50% vs. Melee Units) for 50
Trebuchet = Strength 4 (+100% City Attack) for 80
A CRII Hwacha still gets winning odds against a flat-land Archer, and is then able to attack Melee units with virtually the same strength as a Trebuchet. You lose .5 strength for a gain of 30 hammers per unit (or, for every 5 Trebuchets you build, you can build 8 Hwachas). You basically don't need Trebuchets until LBs, and at that point the AI should be crippled.
What also helps is that, as Grashopa said, Alex only seems to build Melee units (with maybe one or two Archers per city). I *think* this is either because he is Aggressive, or because the AI is more likely to build their UU than they would the base unit, or because the AI can recognize when your stacks mostly consist of War Elephants and whip Spearmen accordingly. What the AI can't do is recognize that a Hwacha ≠ Catapult, and that whipping Spears to help defend against these is suicide (just as whipping Archers is suicide when faced with a Quecha rush, and they do it anyway).
I think that's how it works. The GEs or GSs you generate can, IMO, be put to better uses than bulbing.
@shakabrade
The religious situation is definitely variable. There was a Hindu love-fest in my game and... (spoilering for discussion about other players' games)
Anyway, the main thing is to win the map. Anything after that is just posturing.
We argued a little bit about Xbowmen in the Cho-Ko-Nu thread, but I'm going to put my foot down here and insist that the Engineering beeline is unnecessary for this situation.
My reasoning:
War Elephant = Strength 8 (+50% vs. Mounted Units) for 60
Crossbowman = Strength 6 (+50% vs. Melee Units) for 60
The former has a base strength of 8, the latter a base strength of 6. Crossbowmen receive Protective promotions, but this doesn't bridge the gap between the two units. The most dangerous units I faced in my game were Germany's War Elephants, and to deal with this you want War Elephants of your own.
True, the Crossbowman gets +50% vs. Melee units. But here you have the Hwacha.
Hwacha = Strength 5 (+50% vs. Melee Units) for 50
Trebuchet = Strength 4 (+100% City Attack) for 80
A CRII Hwacha still gets winning odds against a flat-land Archer, and is then able to attack Melee units with virtually the same strength as a Trebuchet. You lose .5 strength for a gain of 30 hammers per unit (or, for every 5 Trebuchets you build, you can build 8 Hwachas). You basically don't need Trebuchets until LBs, and at that point the AI should be crippled.
What also helps is that, as Grashopa said, Alex only seems to build Melee units (with maybe one or two Archers per city). I *think* this is either because he is Aggressive, or because the AI is more likely to build their UU than they would the base unit, or because the AI can recognize when your stacks mostly consist of War Elephants and whip Spearmen accordingly. What the AI can't do is recognize that a Hwacha ≠ Catapult, and that whipping Spears to help defend against these is suicide (just as whipping Archers is suicide when faced with a Quecha rush, and they do it anyway).
I think that's how it works. The GEs or GSs you generate can, IMO, be put to better uses than bulbing.
@shakabrade
The religious situation is definitely variable. There was a Hindu love-fest in my game and... (spoilering for discussion about other players' games)
Spoiler :
Anyway, the main thing is to win the map. Anything after that is just posturing.
@bhavv
We argued a little bit about Xbowmen in the Cho-Ko-Nu thread, but I'm going to put my foot down here and insist that the Engineering beeline is unnecessary for this situation.
My reasoning:
War Elephant = Strength 8 (+50% vs. Mounted Units) for 60
Crossbowman = Strength 6 (+50% vs. Melee Units) for 60
The former has a base strength of 8, the latter a base strength of 6. Crossbowmen receive Protective promotions, but this doesn't bridge the gap between the two units. The most dangerous units I faced in my game were Germany's War Elephants, and to deal with this you want War Elephants of your own.
You can easily add either Elephants or Pikeman on top of trebs + xbows on this map, your logic is still incorrect because you continue to wrongly assume that the treb rush will only use Xbows and Trebs. If you also have the Ivory improved, you only need to research HBR on top of the Engi bulb pathway to also add elephants to your stack.
So basically Elephants + Hwachas + Trebs + Xbows + Pikeman >>> just Elephants + Hwachas.
Heres a successful Machinery bulb retry:
Spoiler :
825 BC Machinery with a very late Oracle. The great wall added extra points to speed it up, but could result in a G Spy instead of a GE / GS. Also I'm sticking with just the 4 better placed cities this time, no more cities needed, the capital in that location is a production powerhouse, plus the other gold, gems and center cottage sites settled for commerce.
Heh, beeline x-bows here and see how German phants slaughter them. Such experience would cure anyone from x-bowmania 
Lib-Democracy, I did that on previous Immortal-AW map in order to get SoL. Then I realized: to build this 1500 hammer monster you need some super 50 hammer per turn city and even then even with copper it will take ages. I was planning switch from Rep into Police State anyway to prepare for invasion from other landmass/invade them myself. I have better use for these 750 hammers!
US I had from Mids, so what the point? No way I would switch from slavery into emancipation in AW.
Security bureau is fricking 220 hammers while Intelligence Agency is only 180 and is better.
For testing purposes I reloaded back and took SciMeth from Lib just to confirm I was right.
Finished game without researching Democracy at all.
Lib-Democracy, I did that on previous Immortal-AW map in order to get SoL. Then I realized: to build this 1500 hammer monster you need some super 50 hammer per turn city and even then even with copper it will take ages. I was planning switch from Rep into Police State anyway to prepare for invasion from other landmass/invade them myself. I have better use for these 750 hammers!
US I had from Mids, so what the point? No way I would switch from slavery into emancipation in AW.
Security bureau is fricking 220 hammers while Intelligence Agency is only 180 and is better.
For testing purposes I reloaded back and took SciMeth from Lib just to confirm I was right.
Finished game without researching Democracy at all.
@bhavv
Sure, but my argument is that Xbows and Trebs offer very little to the player who is attacking Archers/Spears/Swords/Axes with Hwachas and Elephants. The Great Engineer is better settled or saved for a useful wonder (TGL or AP being my personal preference here).
Anyway, post some pics from later in your game (maybe 1AD, 500 AD, 1000 AD). The date at which you bulb Machinery matters less than subsequent progress (attack date, war success, research, economy, etc.).
@Gkey
I think the SoL is incredible for a game like this if you have the time and resources to build it. If 32 cities run GSs, that translates to +192
per turn, pre-modifiers. If you run Mercantilism as well, you're generating ~400 base per turn (or commerce/espionage/whatever) without touching the slider.
But you're right, it's a very expensive wonder. OR and a Forge help make it feasible, but only if you can get there before the AI (I can't remember the last time I built it playing Deity). I'd happily burn a GE to get it.
Sure, but my argument is that Xbows and Trebs offer very little to the player who is attacking Archers/Spears/Swords/Axes with Hwachas and Elephants. The Great Engineer is better settled or saved for a useful wonder (TGL or AP being my personal preference here).
Anyway, post some pics from later in your game (maybe 1AD, 500 AD, 1000 AD). The date at which you bulb Machinery matters less than subsequent progress (attack date, war success, research, economy, etc.).
@Gkey
I think the SoL is incredible for a game like this if you have the time and resources to build it. If 32 cities run GSs, that translates to +192
per turn, pre-modifiers. If you run Mercantilism as well, you're generating ~400 base per turn (or commerce/espionage/whatever) without touching the slider.But you're right, it's a very expensive wonder. OR and a Forge help make it feasible, but only if you can get there before the AI (I can't remember the last time I built it playing Deity). I'd happily burn a GE to get it.
lurking a bit through the forum i found this thread a few days ago
...
having played bic´s immortal aw continent game, i had some idea this time what to expect, so i did adapt my play a bit to this format, since my overall gameplan in bic´s game was more or less the same as in the deity-pangea games...
...
having played bic´s immortal aw continent game, i had some idea this time what to expect, so i did adapt my play a bit to this format, since my overall gameplan in bic´s game was more or less the same as in the deity-pangea games...
Spoiler :
) towards the middle of the continent, thinking greece there (see marker), then had to turn around becasue suddenly greece showed up with several smaller stacks near the coast.
, because the stupid spy i had stationed in the city i planned to take last got caught and i had to wait to get a new one in and stationed, so i got an inceadible cheap steal of...I really did want to play more, but I got a Great Spy for my second GP with 70+% chance for a GE and <30% for a great spy and raged.
I would agree, but then I notice that you hadnt attacked anyone in your screenshots until 1250 AD? Thats when Germany had elephants in your game.
I would agree, but then I notice that you hadnt attacked anyone in your screenshots until 1250 AD? Thats when Germany had elephants in your game.
Heh, beeline x-bows here and see how German phants slaughter them. Such experience would cure anyone from x-bowmania
Havnt you ever heard of pikeman either? Such a shame.
Im not 'beelining xbows', I'm beelining engineering which gives trebs, pikes and castles, and you just happen to get xbows along with them.
@ bhavv:
having had a short look at your screen, i dont think your setting is strong for this map and game. your cities are small and you invested a lot into a strategy that has (this is at least my opinion) no benefit in this special game.
you had machinery around 800 BC but very few infra and city size to make use of it. going elewhachas one can have an army of 10-15 units out at around 500 BC, str.8+50%gainst mounted AND str.5+50%gainst melee+collateral to 25% health this is next to ridiculous, i tested, you simply go stompstompstompstompstompstomp and never stop
having had a short look at your screen, i dont think your setting is strong for this map and game. your cities are small and you invested a lot into a strategy that has (this is at least my opinion) no benefit in this special game.
you had machinery around 800 BC but very few infra and city size to make use of it. going elewhachas one can have an army of 10-15 units out at around 500 BC, str.8+50%gainst mounted AND str.5+50%gainst melee+collateral to 25% health
this is next to ridiculous, i tested, you simply go stompstompstompstompstompstomp and never stopIts 825 BC and I've been spamming the whip and chopping first to get stuff built lol. Theres enough food resources for each city to grow to around size 8 - 10 by 1 AD.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
@ bhavv:
having had a short look at your screen, i dont think your setting is strong for this map and game. your cities are small and you invested a lot into a strategy that has (this is at least my opinion) no benefit in this special game.
you had machinery around 800 BC but very few infra and city size to make use of it. going elewhachas one can have an army of 10-15 units out at around 500 BC, str.8+50%gainst mounted AND str.5+50%gainst melee+collateral to 25% health
But you move too slow.
HAs do the job lot more quickly and get much less time for AIs to whip the defense. By that time, you are deep into the territory and have pillaged metals.
well, maybe you are right. i guess with elewhachas best you can do is somewhat around 500 AD having conquered everything. but it tanks you economy a lot less then a ha rush due to the later start and therefore the better economical setup of your own empire (i ended up with around 20 cities at around 700 ad without gong broke
)so i would be curious to see a ha rush start played out up to, let´s say 1500 AD to compare
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 8,051
There's my game; the fail game. 1000 AD checkpoint.
ok, just finished searching through the tread, having had a short look at your game.
just what i thought, rushing that early overstretches your economy to a point you cant recover any more.
on a funny sidenote... ...you conquered the last city exactly the same year i did (820AD). but i still would guess an optimal elewhacha war on this map could be over around 500 AD and you economy should be able to support it (keeping all cities i mean), so that should be optimal path on this map (unless shaka proves me wrong with another ha-rush game)
just what i thought, rushing that early overstretches your economy to a point you cant recover any more.
on a funny sidenote... ...you conquered the last city exactly the same year i did (820AD). but i still would guess an optimal elewhacha war on this map could be over around 500 AD and you economy should be able to support it (keeping all cities i mean), so that should be optimal path on this map (unless shaka proves me wrong with another ha-rush game)
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
I didn't get the opportunity to play that far on my brother's laptop.
But economy was healthy.10 ish cities 200ad, I believe, courthouses in Greece and China, Germany razed for being too far and potentially dangerous. Took capitals and cottaged riverside cities like Corinth and Sparta. Never had intention to get much bigger. Wanted to tech fast to Steel and raze the other continent which was backward.
Already said I had luck with religions.
Didn't lose many HAs. Less than 10.
Settled all but one general in capital (HE city) to make cr3 cannons and to get 3 beakers from representation. Also had 2 GPros settled and that helped with economy, but didn't get GSpy to be able to steal techs. Thats why I didn't spare anyone. Managed to found Confu. All AIs on other continent with different religions with less city than me according to religion spread screen.
Cities were high food and could run 4 specialists each on average. Beijing was supposed to bulb Astro and maybe even Chemistry. Invasion probably between 1000 and 1100ad maybe even before. That's when my economy would rely on capture money. Razing cities would help with economy and galleons would make war really fast. Must admit I was lucky with everything. I guess it had to compensate once.
Why cannons and not cuirs/cavalry to kill another continent? Because I think you need better economy for intercontinental mounted. Specialist economy is weak to mass whipping.
I think plan would work.
But economy was healthy.10 ish cities 200ad, I believe, courthouses in Greece and China, Germany razed for being too far and potentially dangerous. Took capitals and cottaged riverside cities like Corinth and Sparta. Never had intention to get much bigger. Wanted to tech fast to Steel and raze the other continent which was backward.
Already said I had luck with religions.
Didn't lose many HAs. Less than 10.
Settled all but one general in capital (HE city) to make cr3 cannons and to get 3 beakers from representation. Also had 2 GPros settled and that helped with economy, but didn't get GSpy to be able to steal techs. Thats why I didn't spare anyone. Managed to found Confu. All AIs on other continent with different religions with less city than me according to religion spread screen.
Cities were high food and could run 4 specialists each on average. Beijing was supposed to bulb Astro and maybe even Chemistry. Invasion probably between 1000 and 1100ad maybe even before. That's when my economy would rely on capture money. Razing cities would help with economy and galleons would make war really fast. Must admit I was lucky with everything. I guess it had to compensate once.
Why cannons and not cuirs/cavalry to kill another continent? Because I think you need better economy for intercontinental mounted. Specialist economy is weak to mass whipping.
I think plan would work.
And I still advocate spy economy here. I was chocked by amount of beakers I was able to steal on my attempt. Rushing Alex is viable due to his green riverside land, China blocks access to islands, but Bismark I'd leave alone to give us techs! I am replaying this right now with this plan in mind.
And yes, I could oracle construction, but went for CoL instead again.
Spoiler :
So you say hwachapult is hammer efficient enough, no need to Lib MT, like I did in previous try?
Interesting, Specialist economy is economy for mass whip/draft in my book.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
But it can't support the new land and invasion forces like large developed cities with good infra. Especially overseas. You could hire merchants, but then you stop whipping or whip slowly. Also, in normal games you have many ways to get gold from AIs. Here we don't.
vranasm
Deity
@snaaty
everytime you post SS's from your game I just have to smile...in a good way...but what is Offentliche Verwaltung???
I admit I learned german for like 8 years, but can't find the english equivalent of this...
everytime you post SS's from your game I just have to smile...in a good way...but what is Offentliche Verwaltung???
I admit I learned german for like 8 years, but can't find the english equivalent of this...
