War and all it's death.

[czartim]

Hey guys,

I've been playing Civ 4 [mostly SP] for a few months now and I have a noticed a serious flaw in my play style: I can't win wars.

In early games I tend to only build necessary units for defense. I usually ignore the military for the most part and focus on improving my cities. This allows me to acquire cities via culture and win via diplomacy or space race. I become rich quickly and when someone does wage war against me I buy them off. This is okay for a while but I tend to get bored doing that over and over.

So I build up a big army (usually after i know all techs) of ships, tanks, mechanized soldier, and fighter jets. With at least 25 units i send them as a group to my enemy's shore near his most excluded and weakest city (I knew because I had already sent a spy.) after all my units attacked a city, I had only destroyed 1 unit, and by the next turn they had destroyed all my units. 50 plus rounds of planing for nothing. What am I doing wrong?

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

I think you are going to war too late. When I want domination victory, my first war is usually with axemen, before cats. If I have room to expand and build 5-6 cities, then I may wait for cats. Early wars must be fought with care. It's too easy to get broken. I'm still learning how to get the money. I'm getting better at it.

 

[Sisiutil]

First off, welcome to CFC!

If you wait until very late in the game to launch your wars, you're not likely to experience much success. The reason is that the AI loves building units and gets a break on upgrades, so you're likely to face considerable opposition that is equivalent to your own forces' technology and firepower.

Like AnitaGaribaldi, I'm an advocate of early wars in Civ IV. Early wars of conquest have two significant benefits: they weaken or even eliminate a rival, and they significantly strengthen your position. With additional land, cities, resources, and population, you'll find eventually find yourself shooting ahead of the AI in terms of research and the ability to build military units, and more advanced ones than they have at that.

Also keep in mind which techs and units the AI likes and which ones it doesn't. The AI has a passive/aggressive war strategy; it likes defensive units like Longbowmen and Riflemen, and on attack it prefers to pillage, for which it loves anything on horseback. Thus, the AI prioritizes techs like Archery (for Archers), Feudalism (for Longbowmen), Guilds (for Knights), Military Tradition (for Cavalry), and Rifling (for, well, Riflemen). Thus I find it useful to go after techs that give me more aggressive units that are better at taking cities rather than defending them or pillaging them: Bronze Working for Axemen, Iron Working for Swordsmen, Construction for Catapults, Engineering for Trebuchets, Chemistry for Grenadiers, Steel for Cannons. Construction and Engineering are also handy for the anti-mounted units (War Elephants and Pikemen) to fend off enemy pillagers (which means if your foe has MT for Cavalry, you'll need to hustle over to Rifling PDQ).

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Hey guys,

I've been playing Civ 4 [mostly SP] for a few months now and I have a noticed a serious flaw in my play style: I can't win wars.

In early games I tend to only build necessary units for defense. I usually ignore the military for the most part and focus on improving my cities. This allows me to acquire cities via culture and win via diplomacy or space race. I become rich quickly and when someone does wage war against me I buy them off. This is okay for a while but I tend to get bored doing that over and over.

So I build up a big army (usually after i know all techs) of ships, tanks, mechanized soldier, and fighter jets. With at least 25 units i send them as a group to my enemy's shore near his most excluded and weakest city (I knew because I had already sent a spy.) after all my units attacked a city, I had only destroyed 1 unit, and by the next turn they had destroyed all my units. 50 plus rounds of planing for nothing. What am I doing wrong?

Late game they will have railroads, which means that any unit in their empire can probably attack you on the first turn. A civ that has lasted unscathed until this stage of the game will have a LOT of units and having your attack survive means you need overwhelming force. If you didn't have a significant tech advantage, 25 units is underwhelming - guaranteed to lose.

Generally at this stage of the game you need a tech advantage - tanks + bombers vs infantry or infantry + artillery vs riflemen - to succeed. If you have a massive production advantage (at least 2:1), then you can overwhelm them with units, but be prepared to use a lot more than 25.

The best times to war are:
- Early - with axes/swords/chariots
- Construction - catapults and later maces
- Renaissance - cavalry / grenadiers

If you are planning to go to war the best approach is to tech up to one of these milestones as fast as you can and then devote your economy totally to war. Focus on nothing else other than building your army quickly and getting it to battle before the enemy catch up.

Something else you are probably doing wrong is preparing too long for war. If it really took you 50 turns to raise 25 units, you aren't geared up for a war. At this stage of the game you should be able to raise an army of that size in 10 turns or less at normal speed. Your heroic epic and iron works cities should be producing units every turn - thats 20 units between them in 10 turns. And every one of your other cities should be producing units.

Generally its hard to be a peacemonger switching to late game warmonger. You won't have the highly promoted troops from earlier wars and you may not have heroic epic or west point built. In those games, better to sign a defense pact and race for the stars. If you want to practice your warmonging skills, aim for an early war - ideally as soon as you find metals, and at construction at the latest.

 

[Sisiutil]

Another thought on this occurred to me: as the game progresses, war weariness gets worse--also making late game warring more difficult.

I think the game designers introduced this on purpose, to negate tried-and-true strategies from previous versions of the game. I remember playing Civ II in this fashion--early game REX, bee-lining to tanks, then going out to conquer the world. That ain't nearly so easy to do any more, and I think the game is better for it.

 

[czartim]

Thanks guys, I understand a lot better now. I will try and do what you suggested!

 

[JimT]

Also like you would expect the first city you take will be heavily defended and hard to take. The capital will have a similar stack. Once you have a couple of cities you will find the AIhas less reserves to protect the remainder.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

. I become rich quickly and when someone does wage war against me I buy them off.

If you can afford to continually buy them off, you might want to hire someone to attack your neighbor. There is a good chance that both sides will burn many of their many taking eachother out. With that kind of cash, you can start conflicts between your enemies. You can war with your now weakened neighbor with greater success. The risk of course is that one of the combattants ends up winning quickly and is much larger than before (which helps them recover faster).

When you attack is important. A good time is right after you have a tech advantage and are churning out freshly minted killer units to throw at the outdated enemy. At the higher levels, this is a rare thing and lasts a really really short time if you manage it, so you need to be lightning quick about it.

When you are at war never stop building replacement units. You will lose some, and eventually you might run out of steam. If the enemy didn't run out of steam first, you will be in bad shape if you decided to try and kick out those buildings and wonders in the middle of a war instead of building more "steam" until the enemy was done.

I like the earlier posts reminding us about higher war weariness in the later game hurting your ability to wage war.

 

[scy12]

If you can afford to continually buy them off, you might want to hire someone to attack your neighbor. There is a good chance that both sides will burn many of their many taking eachother out. With that kind of cash, you can start conflicts between your enemies. You can war with your now weakened neighbor with greater success. The risk of course is that one of the combattants ends up winning quickly and is much larger than before (which helps them recover faster).

When at war and peace a great measure is always have one or two friendly Ai . Having as enemies Montezuma, Izabella helps. You would never have to fight a war alone again .And as long as you are in the same tech position and coordinate your attack well you won't have much problems.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

One other thing I thought of was whether culture defense was beaten down. If you really attacked a city with 25 units and only killed one defender, then did the culture defense get removed first? Did you use any artillery or bombers to soften the defenders with collateral damage?

 

[LightSpectra]

I, too, am weak at warfare.

I try to win wars by getting a technological advantage, then using superior troops to beat the enemies. For example, I try to get riflemen while the enemy is still using knights and macemen.

 

[Sisiutil]

I, too, am weak at warfare.

I try to win wars by getting a technological advantage, then using superior troops to beat the enemies. For example, I try to get riflemen while the enemy is still using knights and macemen.

I like doing this too, but it's not always possible, especially as you move up through the levels. It's also difficult to pull off in the very early game unless you have incredible luck with huts.

What's better is to just bring along enough of whatever counter units you need. Macemen, Trebuchets, and Longbowmen are contemporary units, but the former two will beat the latter with sufficient promotions (City Raider in particular) and numbers.

 

[tempuraki]

With at least 25 units i send them as a group to my enemy's shore near his most excluded and weakest city

sounds like you are waging war on another continent, which is hard especially in the late game when technology is equal. You need to take time to get there first and then to land, while the enemy can send reinforcements a lot faster than you can send yours.

Here's what i like to do when i attack a coastal city: attack directly from the transporter. If you don't land your units, the enemy can't get to them. High city-raider promoted modern armors will have good odds even without amphibious promotion, provided that the defense is bombarded down to zero of course. Attack until there's only one unit left in the city to defend, and stop, do not take over the city after the first round. Wait for the enemy's reinforcement to arrive in the city, then you attack again. Keep doing that until your spy reveals that there are no more reinforcements, then you can consider taking over the city, or just leave it alone and go after another coastal city. Make sure you keep a medic promoted unit in the stack and don't stop sending more units to help.

The only way to really hurt your stack is if your enemy has a stong navy or lots of bombers, so make sure you have a good air and see defense for the stack.

 

[ChicagoCubs]

So I build up a big army (usually after i know all techs) of ships, tanks, mechanized soldier, and fighter jets. With at least 25 units i send them as a group to my enemy's shore near his most excluded and weakest city (I knew because I had already sent a spy.) after all my units attacked a city, I had only destroyed 1 unit, and by the next turn they had destroyed all my units. 50 plus rounds of planing for nothing. What am I doing wrong?

1. Did you bomb your target city? If the stealth bombers will reach, then they are the best option. It usually takes five stealth bombers to bring the city's cultural defense to 0%. If the stealth bombers won't reach from your territory, you can take them to a nearby city that you have an Open Border agreement. If bombers are out of the question, you can bombard with Jet fighters (slower), battleships, destroyers, and frigates.

2. Are you attacking directing from your transports? If you are, then you are given a penalty for the attack. Only marines, SEALs, and units with the amphious assault promotion. Try to land your trops, then attack on the next round.

3. Choose your beachhead. Find a defensive tile to land your troops. I will often choose my first target based on where I can land my troops. I look for a hill tile with forest or jungle. Drop off the troops there. If a hilled forest is not available, what about just a hill or just a forest. If you have to ferry troops across with a small navy, consider a position that the enemy will have to attack from across a river. Just remember that you will have to cross that river to attack as well.

4. Plan for modern wars in the ancient era. Promote some old units with forest defence and/or hill defense. Upgrade them to modern units and they will maintain the promotions. These are valuable troops to use when selecting a beachhead in #3.

5. Once you land your troops, the AI will normally throw the house at you. You need to withstand those attacks before you can launch a city taking campaign. I'll typically land my beachhead troops without any of my city raider forces.

6. Be careful on how you stack your troops. Piling all of your units on one square is just begging the AI to attack you with collateral damage units, like catapults, cannons, bombers, etc. These attacks will severly weaken your units.

 

[uncarved block]

It's also worth noting that without early war, you can't get Gunpowder units with City Raider promotions, especially the very tasty CR3. Warring well in the modern era takes a bit of planning early on, even if it's just building a bunch of CR2 Macemen stockpiled to upgrade to Grenadiers or Riflemen later.

Sorry if you're already doing this, but from the first post it didn't sound as if you had found some of the loopholes that make warring easier.

 

[axident]

Hey guys,

I've been playing Civ 4 [mostly SP] for a few months now and I have a noticed a serious flaw in my play style: I can't win wars.

In early games I tend to only build necessary units for defense. I usually ignore the military for the most part and focus on improving my cities. This allows me to acquire cities via culture and win via diplomacy or space race. I become rich quickly and when someone does wage war against me I buy them off. This is okay for a while but I tend to get bored doing that over and over.

So I build up a big army (usually after i know all techs) of ships, tanks, mechanized soldier, and fighter jets. With at least 25 units i send them as a group to my enemy's shore near his most excluded and weakest city (I knew because I had already sent a spy.) after all my units attacked a city, I had only destroyed 1 unit, and by the next turn they had destroyed all my units. 50 plus rounds of planing for nothing. What am I doing wrong?

1. Bombers or stealth bombers. Lots of them. Better than artillery in many cases. Have them huddle up with a healer unit in a city with a hospital for best results.

2. Uh you aren't amphibiously assaulting a city, right? Land your forces next to a city that you stripped the cultural defense from with aircraft, or use artillery if you want. Soften up the city with aircraft, then Barrage-promoted artillery if you have some, then blitz it to death with something strong like drill-promoted armored units. Use mech inf to brace for the inevitable counter-attack. Airlift reinforcements as much as you need to.

There are other things you can do like switch to Police State, or have a Medic III unit on hand, or have West Pt + Pentagon + Mil Acad + Mil Instructor + Heroic Epic churning out highly-promotable Modern Armor, but really those 2 things up there will win you every single modern-era war in which the enemy doesn't have some incredible numerical, technical, or nuke advantage over you.

 

[czartim]

Thank you all for your suggestions! It really did help me, and I'm having a much easier time with the military side of the game.

A few things that I realized I was doing wrong:
Quick games (I was getting tech to quickly to keep up)
Islands (I kept doing maps with a lot of small islands making it hard to transport troops)

Another thing I tried was using the world builder to get a lot of troops. I know It's cheating; but it really helped me get perspective as to what type of troops are good for what. Also choosing the always war option helped me by forcing me to think mostly about the military.

Thanks again!