War Now

[Zwelgje]

To contribute to this discussion I would like to say to all those people who want Israel to kill all Palestinians, do you really believe violence or war will bring a solution? There has been enough violence and war over there in the past 50 years and is there a solution??? I guess the answer should be NO! And to go on about the subject: Is there a solution to the problems in Iraq after the Gulf war? No.

So we can agree that violence will not bring a solution. Still all the US and Israel can think of is bringing more violence, I really can't believe that two nations that think they are so civilized can do this.

Another thing many people don't think of is that there is a connection between the war in Afghanistan and the violence now in Israel. Many muslims feel that the Western world hates them and wants to control them and that's exactly what's happening right now in both Afghanistan and Israel so they are being given the proof that they are right about that. Therefore I think Israel and the US should stop their violence and let the muslims see that they are not trying to oppress them and force their opinion on them.

 

[geake]

Originally posted by civ1-addict

Therefore I think Israel and the US should stop their violence and let the muslims see that they are not trying to oppress them and force their opinion on them.

Maybe they don't really want to do that.

 

[Zwelgje]

I guess you're right, maybe they just want to test their new weapons.........training missions can never be a substitute for real war right?

 

[dreadhead7]

I never said that I want the Israelis to kill all Palestinians. I'm just saying that if we in the U.S. have the right and obligation to fight against terrorism, then, why not the Israelis.

Also, I don't think that the world hates or wants to control all Muslims. I think that the extremists among the Muslims have hijacked their own faith, and has made it bad for all Muslims. Tell me this: why is it that almost all Muslims are united in their hatred of Jews? I don't know much about Muslim/Arab/Jewish/Palestinian history, but I have NEVER heard Jews calling for the extermination of Muslims, Arabs, or Palestinians, but I sure have heard a lot of Muslims calling for the extermination of Jews. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't have sympathy for a group of people whose ultimate aim is the extermination of another group of people.

To be perfectly frank, I think that BOTH sides have wronged each other at times, but to carry out terrorist acts when a peace process was beginning to be worked on only suggests that the ones who did this are not at all interested in peace. I don't agree with some of the things that Israel has done in the past, but I also feel that the extremists and terrorists among the Palestinians are only interested in one thing--the extermination of Israel as a state, and of the Jewish people, in general.

As far as I am concerned, I feel that BOTH Israel and Palestine has the right to exist as sovereign nations. I don't know why this seems to be so difficult a concept to understand, or to achieve.

As far as there being a connection between what's going on in Israel, and what's going on in Afghanistan, I feel that in a sense, that statement is correct, but I find it curious that until recently, Osama didn't have jack to say about the Palestinian situation.

I must say that that whole situation over in the Middle East distresses and depresses me, and I feel that barring a major miracle, there really is no hope for peace over there.

 

[vonork]

I don't know if Arafat want peace or not but I'm starting to get the idée that Sharon don't want peace. Why?

Well his: "7 days of no violence or no peace talks" is kind of hinting in that direction. That is basically a Veto right to all fundamentalists, both Jewish and Palestinian.

 

[dreadhead7]

Well, to be honest, vornork, I thought that a week without violence was a steep condition on whether there would be peace talks or not. I mean, it seems to me that they can't go one day over there without some kind of violence. Perhaps, Sharon could be persuaded to soften his position, but after last weekend, I doubt that that will happen.

 

[Zwelgje]

There really is one thing that worries me most, it seems that the politicians in the middle east really have got no control over their countries. If the politicians agree to talk within a day or so some extremist group (either jewish or muslim) will screw it all up by attacking the others. I think a solution for the conflict in Israel is far away and I don't think there will be peace in the near future.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

A plague on both your houses. Both the Israel government and the Palistinian Authority well deserve never ending horrors of war for their aggression, conquest terrorism, opression, and bigotry.

 

[G-Man]

It's very easy to say Israel is opressing the Palestinians. But these aren't our citizens! They're the citizens of the PA, and aren't our responsibility:
- If they're poor it's because Arafat doesn't care about Palestinian economy and still runs the PA like he used to run his terror orgenizations - all resources go to buying weapons and things for him. He has 3 (5 untill yesterday) luxerious Helicopters, private airport & jets, palaces, all payed for using donations from other countries. Name one thing he did to improve Palestinian economy.
- If they're under closures it's because as soon as Israel lifts closures a wave of terror hits the country.
- If they need to stay at home in fear of being hit it's because they're goverment isn't fighting terrorism and Israel is forced to.
- If Israelis still live in the west bank it's because Arafat didn't accept the peace agreement Israel offered him and decided to start the intifada.
- If children are being accidently hit it's because their parents send them to study in the Hamas education system (used, ofcource, to make these children into potential suicide bombers) that uses the Hamas's facilities.
- If political leader are being targeted by Israel it's beacuse they're also military leaders.
- If the cycle of violence goes on it's beacue when Israel declared a one-side cease fire and stopped closures after the discotech killing the PA used it to send suicide bombers into Israel.

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by civ1-addict
do you really believe violence or war will bring a solution?

Yes. Violence does bring solutions. Examples can be the US Revolution, the US Civil War, WWII, and the Gulf War (we did the goal, liberated Kuwait. The problems extend from the fact that not enough violence was applied, in that we did not drive to Baghdad). Violence should not be sought, but when all else fails, it does work.

If Israel reoccupied the territories and kicked out the PLA, the violence would not end, but it would be greaty reduced. Hamas, Islamic Jihad would no longer be operating in the lawless Palestinian areas where an arrest only leads to freedom a few weeks later. (BTW, my second favorite quote of this was some PLA spokesman saying that THIS time the terrorists would stay behind bars. So they what has been going on for the last seven years? ) The highest casaulties from terror attacks occured in Israel after sigining the "peace" agreement at Oslo.

As for the Israeli vs. Palestinian casaulties, it's because the Israeli's are better trained, and cannot afford losing larger amounts of people. Also, the soldiers either have the option of letting the stone throwing mob surround them and kill them, or they can fire back.

As for waiting for 7 days of peace as a precondition for talks, what is wrong with that? Why should Israel be forced to negotiate as bombs are blowing up in their streets? If Arafat cannot give 7 days, then he is not worth talking to.

 

[Gromit]

Why can't we all just get along?
Take my street as an example, every morning, an Orthodox Jewish (they're the ones with the furry hats) guy leaves his house on his bicycle, as he goes down toward the main road he waves to his neighbour, a Palestinian guy just coming home from his job as a night security dude.

Further down, two guys from Derry one catholic, the other protestant, they live opposite eachother, drink in the same pub and can often be heard singing drunkenly together at 1:00am on the way home.

Even the American who shares my humble abode is fairly easy to get on with

Obviously, it's not ALWAYS a bed of roses, but this all true, I sh*t you not.

 

[Gromit]

And another thing...

Yes. Violence does bring solutions. Examples can be the US Revolution, the US Civil War, WWII, and the Gulf War (we did the goal, liberated Kuwait. The problems extend from the fact that not enough violence was applied, in that we did not drive to Baghdad). Violence should not be sought, but when all else fails, it does work.

U.S. Revolution, fair enough, no tax w/o representation sounds like a good cause to me. No objections there

U.S. Civil War - Think of it as the Industrial United States conquering the Agricultural 'Confederacy of American States'. You've got to grow food somewhere... This was the beginning of the American empire, what we call the United States of America.

WWII - If Germany had been treated better by the treaty of Versailles, Hitler may never have been able to rise to power. And if he hadn't invaded poland, would pearl harbour have happened? If so, the ensueing war would have been called something like the 'Pacific War' and there may never have been a second World War (if we forget for a moment that Japan attacked British colonies in S.E. Asia). It is quite likely, in this event, that Hitler's disgusting regime may still have been in power today. Just as aparthied failed to provoke military action by anyone outside of South Africa.

Gulf War - Oil. No other reason. Until then, Saddam (amongst the many others were the Taliban when they were fighting the Soviet Union) was a very good customer to Western arms dealers

Afghanistan - Revenge maybe, or possibly a strategic military base near China (voted public enemy No.1 by none other than Georg W. Bush), Russia and the new Nuclear states of Pakistan and India.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Zwelgje]

Originally posted by PinkyGen


Yes. Violence does bring solutions. Examples can be the US Revolution, the US Civil War, WWII, and the Gulf War (we did the goal, liberated Kuwait. The problems extend from the fact that not enough violence was applied, in that we did not drive to Baghdad). Violence should not be sought, but when all else fails, it does work.

Good thing that you didn't mention WWI (which brought a relief of 20 years without war in Europe, and that at the mere cost of millions of lifes), the US effort in Vietnam to install a capitalist government there and the Russian effort in Afghanistan (some years ago) to install a communist government there. It would have ruined your theory I guess......


Don't get me wrong, I am not USA bashing here (despite me saying that earlier I was still accused of USA bashing, please don't do that again), I am just trying to get the point across that war just ain't right.

 

[CurtSibling]

The conflict in Israel and the surrounding states is damn mess and I honestly cannot begin to think of a solution that would satisfy the bloodthrist of the factions.

1. Give the Arabs a home state...and they'll want more land.
2. The Israelis are sure as hell not going to back down.

The Arab answer (as always) is violence.
The Israeli answer (as always) is military punishment.

Back and forth, more death, more pain, more hate...

Repeated Ad Finitum...without any long-term cure.

 

[geake]

Originally posted by G-Man
It's very easy to say Israel is opressing the Palestinians. But these aren't our citizens! They're the citizens of the PA, and aren't our responsibility:
- If they're poor it's because Arafat doesn't care about Palestinian economy and still runs the PA like he used to run his terror orgenizations - all resources go to buying weapons and things for him. He has 3 (5 untill yesterday) luxerious Helicopters, private airport & jets, palaces, all payed for using donations from other countries. Name one thing he did to improve Palestinian economy.
- If they're under closures it's because as soon as Israel lifts closures a wave of terror hits the country.
- If they need to stay at home in fear of being hit it's because they're goverment isn't fighting terrorism and Israel is forced to.
- If Israelis still live in the west bank it's because Arafat didn't accept the peace agreement Israel offered him and decided to start the intifada.
- If children are being accidently hit it's because their parents send them to study in the Hamas education system (used, ofcource, to make these children into potential suicide bombers) that uses the Hamas's facilities.
- If political leader are being targeted by Israel it's beacuse they're also military leaders.
- If the cycle of violence goes on it's beacue when Israel declared a one-side cease fire and stopped closures after the discotech killing the PA used it to send suicide bombers into Israel.

Well it's very easy to say that it's always because of palestinians that there are problems. Israelis are the good ones, and palestinians the bad one.

The complain is always the same. Terrorism. But I think, and it's the same in every country, Ireland, Tchetchenia, Palestinia, and so on, that terrorism is sometimes the only thing you have left to do when you're desperate.

Have you heard yourself? You're trying to justify the killing of children!! What kind of a monster are you? You're complaining about the children going to hamas schools, how can you be sure about that?

And try to think about that, had they been living in a place where they had rights, maybe they wouldn't become integrists. Why does Israel is still present in the occupied territories whereas the UN told him to withdraw? Why does Israel keeps on building new cities and colonies in those territories whereas the UN asked him to stop? Why Sharon didn't want to talk with the american mediators last week, and just wanted to send his helicopters and F16s? Why aren't exilies allowed to return to their homes?
and so on...

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by geake

- attacking rock throwers with helicopters and F16s.

*Insert here zillion rolleyes smileys*

Did you watch too much Al-Quaeda propaganda lately?

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
Isreal calls for cease-fire,
Palestinian blows up a bus,
Isreal condemns attack,
Israel kills Palestinians in"retribution",
United Nations condemns Isreal,

And so the cycle continues...

Would have been a better list.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Eli
*Insert here zillion rolleyes smileys*

Did you watch too much Al-Quaeda propaganda lately?

Clearly, though, bombing police posts with military jets is fair and will bring stability to the region.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by geake



Well it's very easy to say that it's always because of palestinians that there are problems. Israelis are the good ones, and palestinians the bad one.

The complain is always the same. Terrorism. But I think, and it's the same in every country, Ireland, Tchetchenia, Palestinia, and so on, that terrorism is sometimes the only thing you have left to do when you're desperate.

Have you heard yourself? You're trying to justify the killing of children!! What kind of a monster are you? You're complaining about the children going to hamas schools, how can you be sure about that?

And try to think about that, had they been living in a place where they had rights, maybe they wouldn't become integrists. Why does Israel is still present in the occupied territories whereas the UN told him to withdraw? Why does Israel keeps on building new cities and colonies in those territories whereas the UN asked him to stop? Why Sharon didn't want to talk with the american mediators last week, and just wanted to send his helicopters and F16s? Why aren't exilies allowed to return to their homes?
and so on...

This time terrorism isn't the last resort: The Palestinians could've signed a final peace agreement with Israel and get 97% of the areas they want, but Arafat didn't agree and started sending terrorists.
I'm not justifying killing children, but if a child is in a military target, he might get hurt. If Bin Laden will bring children to his cave and that cave will be bombed it's his fault that they died, not the US's.
Also, about the UN, do you know what countries are in the UN security council? They had Tunisia (Where Arafat's base was before 1995), now they have Syria, Israel' biggest enemy. If we'd listen to everything the UN would tell us by now we'd be living under the rule of Arafat or one of his arab friends.
Sharon sent in our forces because Arafat had a long time to fight terrorism, and Israel warned him before that if he won't do it our reactions will become stronger. Arresting a few insignificant low ranked activist after every incident isn't fighting terrorism, but a show for the intl. news channels. By now most of those he arrested after the last attack are back on the streets.
Exilies aren't allowed to return because they fought against us, lost, run away and now the arab countries wanna use them as a way to destroy Israel from the inside, by bringing in millions of people that they taught to hate jews. If half the population of china would like to move into the US would the Americans allow them to do it and get a majority in the country0?
If Palestinians have or don't have rights, it's the PA's problem. Israel can't give right to people that aren't it's citizens, and does who are Israeli citizens enjoy exactly the same right as I.



Hamlet - Israel is only attacking Palestinians responsibe to the attacks. Arafat's men are helping the terrorists that attacked us, and they were bombed. Arafat didn't fullfil is duty as head of state to control it's citizens and therefore his helicopters were attacked. If we wanted to kill Palestinian civilians we easy could've done it, but we only fight those that attack us.

 

[vega]

israel bombing palestinian police stations - WHY???
israel occupied palestinian land in the past - WHY???
only israel have a free access to water - WHY???

thats a kindergarten there, both sides are guilty
thats also the fact at the war taliban - usa

but the us gouvernment can boost the us-economy very good at this bad times, that is so mad