Campus Protests

[Gorbles]

And it's the same here. The suffering of random strangers you probably do not personally know is NOT in fact an actual effect applied onto your person.

This is getting confrontational and I don't really want it to, but you do understand the concept of empathy, right?

You're sticking to direct causation as though the causal chain is only ever one layer deep. Reality doesn't work like that.

 

[Senethro]

Allow me to give you a very simple blunt example.
If I punch you in the face personally any neutral observer can attest to the objective fact that you have in fact been effected by me. That neutral observer can observe and even measure the physical effect on your body done by me.
If I punch someone else in the face any neutral observer can attest to the objective fact that you have in fact NOT been effected by me. And no amount of personal opinion is going to break your nose, bust your teeth or make your eye go blue.

I've half a memory of you saying something along the lines of only physical damage matters. Which is definitely an opinion based on your values, because damage other than physical is often measured and considered by medical/legal professionals. I definitely trust their expertise over yours.

You still all in on that? Is terrorism only the physical violence, and are threats of violence covered by free speech?

This is not difficult. It's the scientific method in action. And reality is not a matter of opinion.

Therefore it makes sense for you to protest me punching you in the face but not me punching a random stranger in the face.

It is rational to cooperate. It is rational to build alliances against facepunchers to decrease future harm. I would definitely protest your violence and engage in action against you. Edit for clarity: Yes, even if I was not afftected by this particular event.

You have an absurdly reductive view of this.

For example back when France decided to gut their pension plan and the workers were out in the streets protesting that made sense.
The harm in case of failure was real and massive. The potential gain from victory was therefore equally massive. And the risk reward equation worked out to something that made sense.

On one line you talk about scientific method, and on the next you present a single datapoint.

You're just using terms you think are cool, but not actually employing the ideas they mean.

Perhaps you would like to present a dataset of students/nonstudents engaging in good/bad protest activity by a sensible metric to back up your extremely rational objective views.

 

[schlaufuchs]

the weapons and tactics that are tested and developed by Israel against Palestinians are in turn brought back to the US and sold to police departments who then deploy them against the same students who are out there protesting. The rhetoric and actions surrounding the genocidal violence in turn incites further antipathy and violence towards Jews, Muslims, and BIPOC people here at home. It doesn’t take much effort to draw a line from President Biden saying Hamas is motivated by an “ancient hatred” to brown people randomly being attacked or having their homes and businesses vandalized in the US.

The lives of palestinians in Gaza and the lives of queer, indigenous, black and brown people, and women here are intimately connected, even without us having literal family being blown to bits over there. There’s a reason why there has always been tight connection between liberatory movements (most especially the civil rights movement and the red power movement) here and the anti-apartheid and Palestinian liberation movements overseas.

I cannot give birth but I am nevertheless an active and vociferous supporter of abortion rights because I recognize the right to bodily autonomy which undergirds their cause is the same right to bodily autonomy which undergirds mine, and any anti-abortion tactic or argument which gains political ground or sets legal precedent will soon be used as a basis to restrict my own rights and freedoms and vice versa.

 

[Birdjaguar]

These are opinions I have held my whole life. Even when I was young I newer considered it sensible to randomly protest world injustice.

I would bet you never protested anything. When we were young, globalization as we see it today did not exist. There was communism and the "free world". International news on the scale we see now did not exist. Unless one had a paper subscription to the NYT or Herald Tribune there was little to no international news available unless it involved "communist aggression" or the President going overseas. Vietnam was, of course, the exception. It was the first war televised "live" on TV. Do you remember movie theater newsreels? Those were a major source of public information about world events. What young people cared about in 1965 was very different from what young people care about today. The % of folks who went to college in the 1960s was far less than today and most were likely to be in the top 30% of of their HS class. The Baby Boomers took "sex, drugs and Rock n Roll" serious and destroyed the paradigm of their parents. Being "sensible" no longer was the only or even the best option. You have lived through a hugely (bigly?) tempestuous time when so much of the old has been replaced by wholly new ideas and things. There is no going back.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Students across Europe hold Gaza war protests in run-up to UN vote on Palestinian statehood

Police arrested dozens of people in Amsterdam, with university occupations continuing in Netherlands, Belgium and Spain

www.theguardian.com

An overview of the campus protests in Europe.

 

[Crezth]

the weapons and tactics that are tested and developed by Israel against Palestinians are in turn brought back to the US and sold to police departments who then deploy them against the same students who are out there protesting. The rhetoric and actions surrounding the genocidal violence in turn incites further antipathy and violence towards Jews, Muslims, and BIPOC people here at home. It doesn’t take much effort to draw a line from President Biden saying Hamas is motivated by an “ancient hatred” to brown people randomly being attacked or having their homes and businesses vandalized in the US.

The lives of palestinians in Gaza and the lives of queer, indigenous, black and brown people, and women here are intimately connected, even without us having literal family being blown to bits over there. There’s a reason why there has always been tight connection between liberatory movements (most especially the civil rights movement and the red power movement) here and the anti-apartheid and Palestinian liberation movements overseas.

I cannot give birth but I am nevertheless an active and vociferous supporter of abortion rights because I recognize the right to bodily autonomy which undergirds their cause is the same right to bodily autonomy which undergirds mine, and any anti-abortion tactic or argument which gains political ground or sets legal precedent will soon be used as a basis to restrict my own rights and freedoms and vice versa.

Absolutely. In both Israel and America we are witnessing the same thing: the bloodthirsty depredations of the colonialist bourgeoisie and their running dogs, and the consequences of terminally increasing desperation for tightening the screws on unruly populations that white boy tech geniuses have unilaterally decided humanity should do without.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

This is getting confrontational and I don't really want it to, but you do understand the concept of empathy, right?

You're sticking to direct causation as though the causal chain is only ever one layer deep. Reality doesn't work like that.

I do. I also hold that emotion alone are not a sufficient or reasonable cause to take action. Especially not if that action comes at a high price or has potential negative effects. One needs to stop and use reason before making a decision. And I do not understand those people that just don't. That is the crux of it.

I would bet you never protested anything. [IMG alt=""]https://forums.civfanatics.com/data/assets/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] When we were young, globalization as we see it today did not exist. There was communism and the "free world". International news on the scale we see now did not exist. Unless one had a paper subscription to the NYT or Herald Tribune there was little to no international news available unless it involved "communist aggression" or the President going overseas. Vietnam was, of course, the exception. It was the first war televised "live" on TV. Do you remember movie theater newsreels? Those were a major source of public information about world events. What young people cared about in 1965 was very different from what young people care about today. The % of folks who went to college in the 1960s was far less than today and most were likely to be in the top 30% of of their HS class. The Baby Boomers took "sex, drugs and Rock n Roll" serious and destroyed the paradigm of their parents. Being "sensible" no longer was the only or even the best option. You have lived through a hugely (bigly?) tempestuous time when so much of the old has been replaced by wholly new ideas and things. There is no going back. [IMG alt=""]https://forums.civfanatics.com/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I ain't that old. Believe it or not I am not that old. But even in my student days I was always the one guy looking at everyone funny saying: "Why are you doing that to your self? Getting drunk will just make you sick later." and "Don't you have anything productive to do rather than wasting time saving the world?"

I've half a memory of you saying something along the lines of only physical damage matters. Which is definitely an opinion based on your values, because damage other than physical is often measured and considered by medical/legal professionals. I definitely trust their expertise over yours.

You still all in on that? Is terrorism only the physical violence, and are threats of violence covered by free speech?

The only thing that matters is the thing whose effect on your life can be measured and observed by scientific methods. So if I am trying to intimidate you by threat of violence that matters because that is a real effect because the violence being threatened would be a real effect. It's the same as how I work not for instant cash but for the contractual promise of money at the end of the month.

But that is not equivalent to me murdering or paying some third party. That has nothing to do with you. And whilst you can and will have feelings about it, just as I do, the fact it has nothing to do with you remains.

It is rational to cooperate. It is rational to build alliances against facepunchers to decrease future harm. I would definitely protest your violence and engage in action against you. Edit for clarity: Yes, even if I was not afftected by this particular event.

You have an absurdly reductive view of this.

That is how it came off as, unfortunately. But that is not my intent. The issue is simply that I am having a hard time conveying what I am trying to say. English is not very good at these things.

Basically, from my perspective things like opinions, feelings, emotions etc. are real. But they are not as real as the real world. They are just something that is in your head. And therefore by definition they exist only because you allow them to and indeed want them to be.

To go back to my previous example.

If I punch you and break your nose that is not something you can just wish away. No matter of opinion and feelings is going to wish away the objective reality of your nose being broken. That makes it real.

But say you were to instead watch a video of me punching a baby. Obviously you will feel bad from watching that video. We all will. Well those of us who ain't monsters anyway. But there is no objective physical harm being done to you by that video. Nobody reached out from the monitor and punched you. Any "effect" that video had on you is something that only exists in your head. It only exists if you allow and indeed wish it to exist. You absolutely can just choose to wish that effect away by deciding not to think about it any more. We humans do it all the time in life about all sorts of things.

You do it when you change the channel because the news is upsetting. You do it when you walk around the poor beggar on the street so that he wouldn't try and mooch off you. You do it when you ignore the screaming child in the grocery store or the idiot honking behind you in traffic. And you do it when someone says something "upsetting" on the internet so you just decide you don't care. Choosing to ignore momentary emotions and move on with our lives without letting it spoil our day is literally one of the essential traits of what makes us human. Without it we would all be emotional wrecks.

That is why I call these "effects" not real. Because there is no objective real world force preventing you from just wishing them away as if they newer existed. How else would you call something can not be observed by anyone other than you AND that you can just wish away.

 

[Gorbles]

I do. I also hold that emotion alone are not a sufficient or reasonable cause to take action. Especially not if that action comes at a high price or has potential negative effects. One needs to stop and use reason before making a decision. And I do not understand those people that just don't. That is the crux of it.

So you do understand that at this point, we're deep into opinion, right?

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

But even in my student days I was always the one guy looking at everyone funny saying: "Why are you doing that to your self? Getting drunk will just make you sick later." and "Don't you have anything productive to do rather than wasting time saving the world?"

I get you

 

[Senethro]

I do. I also hold that emotion alone are not a sufficient or reasonable cause to take action. Especially not if that action comes at a high price or has potential negative effects. One needs to stop and use reason before making a decision. And I do not understand those people that just don't. That is the crux of it.


I ain't that old. Believe it or not I am not that old. But even in my student days I was always the one guy looking at everyone funny saying: "Why are you doing that to your self? Getting drunk will just make you sick later." and "Don't you have anything productive to do rather than wasting time saving the world?"


The only thing that matters is the thing whose effect on your life can be measured and observed by scientific methods. So if I am trying to intimidate you by threat of violence that matters because that is a real effect because the violence being threatened would be a real effect. It's the same as how I work not for instant cash but for the contractual promise of money at the end of the month.

But that is not equivalent to me murdering or paying some third party. That has nothing to do with you. And whilst you can and will have feelings about it, just as I do, the fact it has nothing to do with you remains.

That is how it came off as, unfortunately. But that is not my intent. The issue is simply that I am having a hard time conveying what I am trying to say. English is not very good at these things.

Basically, from my perspective things like opinions, feelings, emotions etc. are real. But they are not as real as the real world. They are just something that is in your head. And therefore by definition they exist only because you allow them to and indeed want them to be.

To go back to my previous example.

If I punch you and break your nose that is not something you can just wish away. No matter of opinion and feelings is going to wish away the objective reality of your nose being broken. That makes it real.

But say you were to instead watch a video of me punching a baby. Obviously you will feel bad from watching that video. We all will. Well those of us who ain't monsters anyway. But there is no objective physical harm being done to you by that video. Nobody reached out from the monitor and punched you. Any "effect" that video had on you is something that only exists in your head. It only exists if you allow and indeed wish it to exist. You absolutely can just choose to wish that effect away by deciding not to think about it any more. We humans do it all the time in life about all sorts of things.

You do it when you change the channel because the news is upsetting. You do it when you walk around the poor beggar on the street so that he wouldn't try and mooch off you. You do it when you ignore the screaming child in the grocery store or the idiot honking behind you in traffic. And you do it when someone says something "upsetting" on the internet so you just decide you don't care. Choosing to ignore momentary emotions and move on with our lives without letting it spoil our day is literally one of the essential traits of what makes us human. Without it we would all be emotional wrecks.

That is why I call these "effects" not real. Because there is no objective real world force preventing you from just wishing them away as if they newer existed. How else would you call something can not be observed by anyone other than you AND that you can just wish away.

Yeah yeah, very stoic. I take 2 broad approaches regarding it.

1: What if someone is opting into the emotion anyway as it aligns with their stance regarding the event?

Why do you assume everyone else is uncontrollably driven by emotion and that all internal sensation is maladaptive?

2: Your version of it has a mind/body duality style assumption that would not be borne out with sufficient chemical or direct electrical stimulus to your neural tissue.

 

[pob]

I do. I also hold that emotion alone are not a sufficient or reasonable cause to take action. Especially not if that action comes at a high price or has potential negative effects. One needs to stop and use reason before making a decision. And I do not understand those people that just don't. That is the crux of it.


I ain't that old. Believe it or not I am not that old. But even in my student days I was always the one guy looking at everyone funny saying: "Why are you doing that to your self? Getting drunk will just make you sick later." and "Don't you have anything productive to do rather than wasting time saving the world?"


The only thing that matters is the thing whose effect on your life can be measured and observed by scientific methods. So if I am trying to intimidate you by threat of violence that matters because that is a real effect because the violence being threatened would be a real effect. It's the same as how I work not for instant cash but for the contractual promise of money at the end of the month.

But that is not equivalent to me murdering or paying some third party. That has nothing to do with you. And whilst you can and will have feelings about it, just as I do, the fact it has nothing to do with you remains.

That is how it came off as, unfortunately. But that is not my intent. The issue is simply that I am having a hard time conveying what I am trying to say. English is not very good at these things.

Basically, from my perspective things like opinions, feelings, emotions etc. are real. But they are not as real as the real world. They are just something that is in your head. And therefore by definition they exist only because you allow them to and indeed want them to be.

To go back to my previous example.

If I punch you and break your nose that is not something you can just wish away. No matter of opinion and feelings is going to wish away the objective reality of your nose being broken. That makes it real.

But say you were to instead watch a video of me punching a baby. Obviously you will feel bad from watching that video. We all will. Well those of us who ain't monsters anyway. But there is no objective physical harm being done to you by that video. Nobody reached out from the monitor and punched you. Any "effect" that video had on you is something that only exists in your head. It only exists if you allow and indeed wish it to exist. You absolutely can just choose to wish that effect away by deciding not to think about it any more. We humans do it all the time in life about all sorts of things.

You do it when you change the channel because the news is upsetting. You do it when you walk around the poor beggar on the street so that he wouldn't try and mooch off you. You do it when you ignore the screaming child in the grocery store or the idiot honking behind you in traffic. And you do it when someone says something "upsetting" on the internet so you just decide you don't care. Choosing to ignore momentary emotions and move on with our lives without letting it spoil our day is literally one of the essential traits of what makes us human. Without it we would all be emotional wrecks.

That is why I call these "effects" not real. Because there is no objective real world force preventing you from just wishing them away as if they newer existed. How else would you call something can not be observed by anyone other than you AND that you can just wish away.

PPQ on Tatooine: Hey Luke Skywalker, just ignore it and get back to working on the moisture farm where you can be productive. Why would you care what happens to those people on Alderaan anyway?

 

[EgonSpengler]

MIT has warned protestors that they'll be expelled from the school. I'm not sure what the deadline is.

I'm not sure if this threat did nothing or if the school administration just said "ah, [screw] it", but police cleared the camp in the middle of the night.

 

[NinjaCow64]

"Don't you have anything productive to do rather than wasting time saving the world?"

How is "saving the world" unproductive? Seems more productive than maximising shareholder value to me.

You do it when you walk around the poor beggar on the street so that he wouldn't try and mooch off you.

Personally, when I see a beggar on the street I usually give him some money. Usually I try and get some cash out if I don't have any on me.

But say you were to instead watch a video of me punching a baby. Obviously you will feel bad from watching that video. We all will. Well those of us who ain't monsters anyway. But there is no objective physical harm being done to you by that video. Nobody reached out from the monitor and punched you. Any "effect" that video had on you is something that only exists in your head. It only exists if you allow and indeed wish it to exist. You absolutely can just choose to wish that effect away by deciding not to think about it any more. We humans do it all the time in life about all sorts of things.

Emotions don't work like that. But, okay, lol, if you can choose what emotions you have then why don't you choose to have empathy for the people of Palestine? I would recommend it.

 

[Nick723]

I do struggle to understand why the Israel / Palestine conflict is elevated above many other conflicts. You just don’t get the same strength of feeling around any other conflict.

Perhaps someone can explain why for young and left leaning people this conflict is the most important? And not just the most important conflict, the most important issue (overtaking any domestic issues, for example).

Back when I was at university, the biggest protests were around student fees. Now that’s a cause I can understand students getting behind!

 

[r16]

everything the West claims about itself is proven wrong by what Israel does .

 

[Gorbles]

I do struggle to understand why the Israel / Palestine conflict is elevated above many other conflicts. You just don’t get the same strength of feeling around any other conflict.

A relevant factor would be "it's happening right now". What other conflicts are ongoing and have resulted in tens of thousands of dead civilians (including children and infants) as well as widespread / intentional destruction of hospitals and other vital infrastructure?

People have been pretty energised in support of Ukraine, no? But then again, Ukraine actually got support (and recently the US passed a bill for more).

 

[Birdjaguar]

I ain't that old. Believe it or not I am not that old. But even in my student days I was always the one guy looking at everyone funny saying: "Why are you doing that to your self? Getting drunk will just make you sick later." and "Don't you have anything productive to do rather than wasting time saving the world?"

OK. Thanks.

 

[Nick723]

A relevant factor would be "it's happening right now". What other conflicts are ongoing and have resulted in tens of thousands of dead civilians (including children and infants) as well as widespread / intentional destruction of hospitals and other vital infrastructure?

People have been pretty energised in support of Ukraine, no? But then again, Ukraine actually got support (and recently the US passed a bill for more).

I think ‘happening right now’ is definitely a factor, but there are also serious live conflicts in (to name a few): Sudan, Ethiopia, Myanmar, Haiti.

For me, Ukraine / Russia is much more impactful important than Israel / Gaza, mainly due to proximity worries and the possible of nuclear escalation.

The only thing I can put my finger on is the West’s support for Israel, but somehow feel that even in the absence of that this conflict would be elevated somehow.

 

[Gorbles]

I think ‘happening right now’ is definitely a factor, but there are also serious live conflicts in (to name a few): Sudan, Ethiopia, Myanmar, Haiti.

For me, Ukraine / Russia is much more impactful important than Israel / Gaza, mainly due to proximity worries and the possible of nuclear escalation.

The only thing I can put my finger on is the West’s support for Israel, but somehow feel that even in the absence of that this conflict would be elevated somehow.

I've also seen coverage of Haiti, especially in progressive circles, and some mention of issues in the other three places. I don't think it's inconsistent.

On top of that, Ukraine gets daily news coverage on top of being a cause Western government's generally support, the people tend to as well. That's not the case for Gazans. Despite a large amount of popular support, support from governments is less than forthcoming (amongst the countries whose support matters the most - Ireland supporting Palestine isn't anywhere near thr same as the UK choosing to, for example).

 

[EnglishEdward]

I do struggle to understand why the Israel / Palestine conflict is elevated above many other conflicts. You just don’t get the same strength of feeling around any other conflict.

Perhaps someone can explain why for young and left leaning people this conflict is the most important? And not just the most important conflict, the most important issue (overtaking any domestic issues, for example).

Back when I was at university, the biggest protests were around student fees. Now that’s a cause I can understand students getting behind!

I think there are several things going on:

(a) Rise of Internet means that young peoples' perceptions are much less localised
(more perceive themselves as citizens of everywhere, less as citizens of somewhere)

(b) Virtue signaling; complain loudly about something one can hardly impact
and for which complaining will not result in any substantial kickback

(c) It suits our financial rulers to have people distracted from domestic evils
by becoming more preoccupied with foreigners killing foreigners.