War Now

[Little Raven]

Theres alot of people posting opinions here that have no idea what the **** they are talking about.

*raise* I'm going to assume for the moment that you aren't talking about me. I can assure you, I've done quite a bit of research on the topic of the middle east over the last few years.

It's not a question of good guys and bad guys, Joe. If it were, the situation would be a whole lot simpler. There are good guys and bad guys on both sides. Are suicide bombings an atrocity and politically unproductive? Yes! But so is communal punishment, which Israel has been engaged in for years. Does Israel have a right to self-defense? Of course she does. But the Palestinians also have a right to self-determination. This whole situation is extremely complicated; that's one reason why it's gone on for so long.

It would be nice if Hamas could be destroyed completely. But you're not going to be able to destroy an organization completely when it has the kind of popular support that Hamas does. If Israel really wants to destroy Hamas, they have to erode its support, and as polls over the last year have shown, almost every one of Sharon's policies has INCREASED support for Hamas. Targetted killings may give Israelis a nice sense of retribution, but they have not done a darn thing to reduce terrorism.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one giant mess, and one that continually spills out into the rest of the world. Both sides bear a measure of responsibility for it. To say that Israel is a blameless victim is both incorrect and unproductive. As long as attitudes like that persist, peace will remain elusive.

 

[omichyron]

Pinky, this would be a very good and popular theory, but you must
remember, that nobody hits you, no people voluntelarly wants to harm another.
It's not that simple. Why would you hit me without a reason?
I know, there are some sick people who feel nice just to 'hit' others.
But there is a reason why they are sick.

And so the moral high ground is attained

I didn't thought that Israel was full of 'bad-people'. Until now.

And lost.


There is no reason to go around insulting people for protesting the deaths of their countrymen. I think that many supporters of the Palestinian viewpoint are too easily influenced by the media and become defensive when they see their philosophy may be flawed....

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by PinkyGen


That is true, but that world is very far away, if it all possible. As long as people want something another has, people will have motives to harm one another.

Gromit, I have never read Ghandi's works, so my knowledge of his actual positions is somewhat scarce. (However wasn't he using non-violence to fight his colonial oppressors, and not bombing malls).
In any case, there are times when non-violence is far more preferable to violent methods. Once again, I stress that violence is not the only answer. However, when all else fails, as I believe what has happened Israel, then violence is the only solution.

An amazingly good answer, with no response to my question.

I can still understand if a hits b if a gets money, but why would
a hit be if he would get nothing from it?

 

[animepornstar]

joespaniel, maybe i don´t know so much about talking about, compared to g-man and eli, but at least i know that the conflict isn´t so simple as you described it.

 

[Atros]

I read in the news that Israel is now bombing the Palestinians again even though Arafat has gave in to their demands and arrested some of the terrorist leaders. Isn't it a bit unreasonable to ask someone to capture 30+ terrorist leaders in such a short period when the US can't even capture 1. And since he is already acceding to your demands, why bomb them? It would only annoy the Palestinians and make them think that the Israeli government isn't keeping it's word.

And when i was talking about taking land from the palestinians i don't refer to Israel's original borders, i was referring to the land Israel occupied at the Gaza strip and refuses to move out of. The war is already over, so why are you occupying the land that does not belong to you?

 

[Little Raven]

Err...I suspect Sharon doesn't really care what Arafat does at this point. According to Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, Sharon is looking "to be rid" of Arafat all together. I suspect Sharon has wanted to get rid of Arafat for a long time, but the recent bombings offer a new opportunity. I don't know how much support Sharon will find for this idea at home and abroad, most people will agree that Arafat is not very good peace partner, but almost nobody believes that if he falls the situation will improve. If Arafat's PA is toppled, Hamas is virtually certain to take over, and while Israel can argue that Hamas can't be any worse than the PA, I don't think they can argue that they will be better....

The West Bank and Gaza remain occupied because many Israelis still hold to the dream of the "Greater Israel." For a long time this was driven by the need for Israel to acquire "strategic depth," in case of another attack by her Arab neighbors. With the demise of the Cold War and the emergence of the current world order, this need is largely archaic, but there is a significant faction of the Israeli populace that refuses to let the dream die. Sadly, the pursuit of this dream virtually guarantees that Israel and the Palestinians will not co-exist peacefully.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Atros
I read in the news that Israel is now bombing the Palestinians again even though Arafat has gave in to their demands and arrested some of the terrorist leaders. Isn't it a bit unreasonable to ask someone to capture 30+ terrorist leaders in such a short period when the US can't even capture 1. And since he is already acceding to your demands, why bomb them? It would only annoy the Palestinians and make them think that the Israeli government isn't keeping it's word.

And when i was talking about taking land from the palestinians i don't refer to Israel's original borders, i was referring to the land Israel occupied at the Gaza strip and refuses to move out of. The war is already over, so why are you occupying the land that does not belong to you?

Arafat had a very long time to arrest them. Israel demanded he'll arrest after every suicide bomb. He always said he will, but he bever did. Even now he didn't arrest any leader. Only street activists, does that march on the streets and shoot in the air. And the Hamas has thousands of those.
Also, the US can't capture Bin Laden beacuse he's in some cave on the other side of the world. Arafat not only knows where the Hamas leader is, his police actually guards him!!! Sounds more like the Taliban to me...
And the war isn't over. Israel said it's willing to return these lands if there'll be peace, but Arafat listened to the Hamas and the other terror orgenizations and demanded more. The orgenizations aren't fighting against what you call occupation - The west bank and Gaza - but for what they call occupation - entire Israel. And so as long as there's support for Hamas it means the Palestinians aren't willing to let us have a country of our own.

 

[vonork]

You hit me and I don’t hit you, that is the only way that eventually can bring a peaceful solution.

No violence in 7 days, do you actually expect that Arafat control every religious fanatic or any other person with a lot of hate? And why doesn’t Sharon start, no retribution – that would remove a lot of Hamas rhetoric.

I can’t however understand why Arafat has not put the leaders of Hamas on trial; they have clearly taken the responsibility of acts with no other intent then to kill civilians. And for this Arafat should be blamed.

But destroying the infrastructure of the Palestinians doesn’t help him in the effort. What is the purpose of destroying polices stations and the office for statistics (they shall even have taken there computers?), the airport, come on?

There just don’t seam to be any real interest of either side on peace.

 

[G-Man]

Arafat's airport was never hitted. And the police station we destroyed was producing mortars for the Tanzim to shoot into Israel.
Israel doesn't demand Arafat to control everyone, but to do anything he can do to stop them. If he'll do that be sure we'll help him. But his own soldiers are attacking Israel. The Tanzim is the Fatah's military, and the Fatah is Arafat's orgenization. So as long as the Tanzim is shooting dozens of mortars and thousands of bullets on Israelis every day you can't expect Israel to believe he's fighting against terrorism.
Also, Israel did declare a one sided cease fire after the Disco tech suicide attack. The idea was that Arafat will be afraid that Israel will retaliate so if we won't he'll be glad enough to help us fight the terrorists. He didn't stop the terrorists, and they used the lifted closures in order to get more suicide bombers into Israel.

Interesting, I thought Israel had the best intelligence service in the world ... and so they didn't notice massacres in a territory they were occupying ... how convenient.

It didn't happen in Israeli territory and it wasn't a planned thing. The christians and the muslims in south Lebanon have been in war for a long time before Israel came, and the christians used the Israeli attacks in order to attack the weakend muslims. How can we get information on that? Who do you think will inform us? those running for their lifes or those that massacred them?

 

[vonork]

I’ll blame the newspapers then cause they wrote that the Israel army bulldozed the runways of the airport. (Still the statistic office and Arafat’s choppers(transporting the mortars to the Tanzim?)

But Arafat’s police should (and probably could) do so much more, I think he has tried to gamble with forces to strong and now is afraid to lose control totally. Or he has total control but then I just can’t see what his purpose is.

Frankly I don’t think the fundamentalist on either side want peace and that just sad, how can you become so blind that the only solution you see is to destroy those that are not like you. Guess they scream the highest and by that takes over the agenda from those who only want peace.

 

[G-Man]

Arafat's Helicopters were attacked in order to give him a warning.

The difference between the two sides is that in Israel the extrimist can protest but can't do anything while the Palestinians just let theirs do whatever they want. The only important terrorist they've arrested was Yassin. They putted him in house arrest. The rediculeous thing is he's so old he hasn't come out of his home for years anyway, and he's just a spiritual leader, not an active terrorist...

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by Juize


An amazingly good answer, with no response to my question.

I can still understand if a hits b if a gets money, but why would
a hit be if he would get nothing from it?

Because A will get things from it. You have two sides with different, and in my opinion irreconciable (I know it's mispelled )differences.

There is also the factor that violence may be all that A is used to, or that A just might merely be psycho.

 

[G-Man]

Juize, your theory is cacelling itself. If A wouldn't attack B without B attacking A and B won't attack A unless A will attack him first, then why are there wars in the first place?

 

[CurtSibling]

I never knew the alphabet had began civil war!

Will G and H get involved?


Sorry!

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by G-Man
Juize, your theory is cacelling itself. If A wouldn't attack B without B attacking A and B won't attack A unless A will attack him first, then why are there wars in the first place?

Because people like you seem to believe that a/b is just an evil person which will eventually
hit you without a reason, so you should attack first against them.
Then the people like you on the other side...
Well, you got the point.

IM most-HO.

 

[G-Man]

The Palestinians started this intifada. Israel is just retaliating, and by your theory it's resonable. So you should support us. But like all other idiots you'll always support the underdog, without carring if he gave the first bite.

 

[Zwelgje]

I think Palestinians and Israelis have to realize that the fingerpointing that they have done hasn't brought any solution in their conflict. So they should stop blaming each other for beginning this whole conflict. It is time to put down the weapons and start talking about solutions. The only problem is to find people on both sides who are wise enough to talk to each other and convince the people that violence is not the right way to solve the conflict. At this point I see nobody on both sides capable of that or willing to do that, sadly.....

 

[geake]

Originally posted by G-Man
The Palestinians started this intifada. Israel is just retaliating, and by your theory it's resonable. So you should support us. But like all other idiots you'll always support the underdog, without carring if he gave the first bite.

G-Man, have you ever tried to consider that Israel may be held (even just a bit) responsible, as well as the palestinians, for what has been going on for decades?

I don't like manicheism. I think this is jsut irrelevent when it comes to politics. Causes and effects are just too complex to be analysed. This metaphore of the dog who gives the first bite is just stupid.

You say we should support you. Sure I do, and I understand there's a sword hanging over Israel, and that it's not great to live under that kind of everyday stress. But I also support the palestinian people and understand their frustration. And I refuse the idea that one or the other should be annihilated. Nothing is white, nothing is black, everything on earth is grey because of dust.

You're talking about "idiots" and "underdog", you show so much contempt... in a way, I think you're some kind of extremist yourself.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by G-Man
The Palestinians started this intifada. Israel is just retaliating, and by your theory it's resonable. So you should support us. But like all other idiots you'll always support the underdog, without carring if he gave the first bite.

If ONE person makes a suicide attack, why are OTHERS punished for that?


Thats the thing what I have been wondering on loong time.

 

[G-Man]

civ1-addict
The Palestinians broke every agreement we've ever signed with them. They broke the Oslo agreement, the 1982 agreements, and four cease fire agreements. Do you really think Israel will negotiate with them before they start doinmg something?

Juize & geake
Israel isn't fighting the Palestinians but the terrorists. However, it is the PA's duty to stop terrorist that work in it's territory. So Israel is attacking PA facilities that support terrorists. But Israel isn't attacking Palestinians that haven't done anything. Further more, Israel is running a very large humanitarian aid project to help Palestinians, although they have their own goverment that should to take care of them.