War Now

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by civ1-addict


Good thing that you didn't mention WWI (which brought a relief of 20 years without war in Europe, and that at the mere cost of millions of lifes), the US effort in Vietnam to install a capitalist government there and the Russian effort in Afghanistan (some years ago) to install a communist government there. It would have ruined your theory I guess......


Don't get me wrong, I am not USA bashing here (despite me saying that earlier I was still accused of USA bashing, please don't do that again), I am just trying to get the point across that war just ain't right.

I never said violence is always right. However, violence can bring solutions to problems that cannot be settled be peacefully. The concept that war is never right is just plain wrong.

Here is a demonstration:
I come up to you, hit you on the face.
You complain, are ready to hit back, and I point that this is violence. You stop, realizing violence does not solve problems.
I then hit you again.
I repeat until I get hit back.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Disgusting. The Palestinians should try to wrap their minds around the concept that two wrongs don't make a right. Saner heads doubtless will not prevail, and the area will be a bloodbath in hours. (..)

Afganistan, anyone?

(Oh well, ban me AofA, because I trolled sooo awfully!!! )


Personally I think, that the Arafat has no control of 'his troops'.
Suicide attacks are the most desperate way to indicate of social problems.
If 1 palestinian makes suicide-attack, it's not others fault.
If 100 palestinian will make suicide-attacks, it's not other palestinians fault.
So don't punish the others, they will eventually come suicide bombers if you do (It isn't just Israel, u know...)

EDIT1: Spelling

 

[Gromit]

PinkyGen,

Has the world learned nothing from that skinny Indian dude with trendy glasses, sandals, a toga and an ever so endearing smile?

Actually, don't bother to answer that. I think I already hear the word 'no' ringing in my ears

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by PinkyGen


I never said violence is always right. However, violence can bring solutions to problems that cannot be settled be peacefully. The concept that war is never right is just plain wrong.

Here is a demonstration:
I come up to you, hit you on the face.
You complain, are ready to hit back, and I point that this is violence. You stop, realizing violence does not solve problems.
I then hit you again.
I repeat until I get hit back.

Pinky, this would be a very good and popular theory, but you must
remember, that nobody hits you, no people voluntelarly wants to harm another.
It's not that simple. Why would you hit me without a reason?
I know, there are some sick people who feel nice just to 'hit' others.
But there is a reason why they are sick.

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by Juize


Pinky, this would be a very good and popular theory, but you must
remember, that nobody hits you, no people voluntelarly wants to harm another.
It's not that simple. Why would you hit me without a reason?
I know, there are some sick people who feel nice just to 'hit' others.
But there is a reason why they are sick.

That is true, but that world is very far away, if it all possible. As long as people want something another has, people will have motives to harm one another.

Gromit, I have never read Ghandi's works, so my knowledge of his actual positions is somewhat scarce. (However wasn't he using non-violence to fight his colonial oppressors, and not bombing malls).
In any case, there are times when non-violence is far more preferable to violent methods. Once again, I stress that violence is not the only answer. However, when all else fails, as I believe what has happened Israel, then violence is the only solution.

 

[amadeus]

Just remember Teddy Roosevelt (the BETTER Roosevelt): "speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."

 

[Atros]

its the attitude in the posts of this threat thats causing this conflict. With talk of "building a fence and not letting palestinians in" or "killing Arafat" , the palestinians would get angry, and they are constantly oppressed by the israelis who force them out of their homes and put them in camps. So some palestinians get POed and strike back, then the israelis bomb the palestinians, which further aggravates their feelings, the acts done by the palestinians were by terrorists which are unsanctioned by the government, but since israel sanctions and supports atrocities to kill the palestinians, of course the palestinians don't want peace anymore since the israelis are so intent to commit genocide on them.

Seems the method of diplomacy with Arafat they're using seems to be constantly blowing and bombing his helicopters and stuff. Imagine, would you like to live peacefully with someone who destroys you possesions and intimidates you for things you did not do? When Barak (im not sure about his name, hes the guy before Ariel Sharon) was in power, there was quite a good chance of a peaceful and diplomatic resolution, but Ariel Sharon's too much of an extremist and the palestinians hate him like crazy for some atrocities he commited.

 

[Zwelgje]

I agree with Atros. Years ago there was just a small group of Palestinians willing to kill Jews in terrorist actions. The Jews punished the whole Palestinian people for those actions and that's why more and more Palestinians are willing to commit terrorist actions. Innocent Palestinians have been punished and for no reason at all so now they are mad with the Jews. I think that's the major reason why the situation is escalating so fast.

 

[G-Man]

Atros, your post is just what I asked many times not to post. Stop blaming Israel for things we didn't do. We don't kick Palestinians out of their homes for 50 years and even then it was only those who supported attacks aginst us. We don't attack all Palestinians, we attack terrorists and the Palestinian goverment that isn't stoping them. If there was a chance to peace during Barak's time then why did Arafat start the intifada? The Israeli people was disappointed and elected the right wing leader, Sharon, that hasn't done any atrocities to anyone unless you count destroying Arafat's terror infrastracture in Lebanon. Israel isn't, never did and never will apply any racist actions against Palestinians, including genocide.
You say I'm wrong? PROOVE IT!

 

[Atros]

Originally posted by G-Man
The Israeli people was disappointed and elected the right wing leader, Sharon, that hasn't done any atrocities to anyone unless you count destroying Arafat's terror infrastracture in Lebanon. Israel isn't, never did and never will apply any racist actions against Palestinians, including genocide.
You say I'm wrong? PROOVE IT!

After WW1, the German were disappointed (with the Weimar Republic) and elected the right wing leader, Hitler, that hasn't done any atrocities to anyone (before he came to power) unless you count his intentions of destroying Jews infrastructure in Europe. Germany wasn't at that time, havn't yet, and probably will apply racist actions against Jews, including genocide. The propaganda department of the Nazi party said "You say We're wrong? PROOVE IT!"

Anyway, while the Sharon were "destroying Arafat's terror infrastracture in Lebanon", do you know how many civilian casualties he caused?

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by Atros


After WW1, the German were disappointed (with the Weimar Republic) and elected the right wing leader, Hitler, that hasn't done any atrocities to anyone (before he came to power) unless you count his intentions of destroying Jews infrastructure in Europe. Germany wasn't at that time, havn't yet, and probably will apply racist actions against Jews, including genocide. The propaganda department of the Nazi party said "You say We're wrong? PROOVE IT!"

Anyway, while the Sharon were "destroying Arafat's terror infrastracture in Lebanon", do you know how many civilian casualties he caused?

Most of this is crap. You are saying Sharon should be held accountable for atrocities he hasn't committed yet. You can't hold someone accountable for something they haven't done yet. He was elected because Arafat pretty much fooled Barak (a noble man whose goal just couldn't be attained).

Civ1-addict: "Years ago there was just a small group of Palestinians willing to kill Jews in terrorist actions."
Small group. Who attacked Israel in 1948, and who were going to attack in 1967. The Palestinians waged war against Israel and they lost. The Jews didn't steal any land. They moved in, and bought property. They didn't kick Palestinians. That didn't happened until they started the 1948 war. (Oh, and most fled because the Arab governments told them to flee, then come back in a few days after those troublesome Jews were washed in the sea.)

At least these aren't the arguments that I'm seeing on another board. There, the guy thinks the Jews secretly run the world, Protocols of Zion and all.

 

[G-Man]

Atros, I can't believe you compare Sharon to Hitler, murdering millions of jews to killing and capturing terrorists, and pure racism to war you were forced into.

 

[animepornstar]

if voilence could solve the conflict, then i think it all ready would be peace there. actually, i can´t see how more voilence would help.

about sharon. it´s silly to compare him to hitler. hitler, stalin, pol pot and couple of others are in their own division. but, he led the invasion of lebanon. i don´t know how well proven the massacres in the refugee camps sabra and shatila, but i know the whole invasion of lebanon was very bloody and i know some israelis still hate sharon for it.

 

[G-Man]

The Israeli invasion to Lebanon was a military action, not a massacre. The massacres in the refugee camps were made, without Israel knowing about it, by arab christians. The same population that Arafat is now using in order to get support from europe and the US (Israel attacks Palestinians > Israel attacks christianity)
There was a claim that Sharon invaded further into Lebanon then he said to the goverment he will. However, there weren't any evidences to it. Some Israelis still believe he did it.

 

[geake]

"The massacres in the refugee camps were made, without Israel knowing about it, by arab christians."

Interesting, I thought Israel had the best intelligence service in the world ... and so they didn't notice massacres in a territory they were occupying ... how convenient.

"The same population that Arafat is now using in order to get support from europe and the US (Israel attacks Palestinians > Israel attacks christianity)"

Which country gets the biggest support from the US? Israel or Palestine? Israel attacks Palestinians the day US peacetalkers come to try to do something, and Washington doesn't say a word.
Sure Arafat tries to get support. He needs some.
Moreover, who said that Israel attacked christianity? What does that mean?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by geake
Israel attacks Palestinians the day US peacetalkers come to try to do something,

You mean that the suicide attack in a bus which killed 3 people is an Israeli attack on the Palestinians?

 

[PinkyGen]

Geake, Israeli intelligence is not perfect. If it was, they could stop every single suicide bomber before they exploded. It was only after the massacre that Israel noticed it, the same way they can only tell a bomb has went off after the fact.

"Israel attacks Palestinians the day US peacetalkers come to try to do something, and Washington doesn't say a word."
Actually, it was the twin suicide that occured when Zinni came, so it was really the Palestinians who sabatoged the peace mission, not Israel.

Next

 

[Little Raven]

PinkyGen, Israeli intelligence may not be perfect, but the massacres in question happened over a period of almost 12 hours. 12 hours of killing and no Israeli noticed a thing? How convienent... There's been a great deal of this kind of coincidence in Israeli history, some of it quite recently. Over the summer, a number of drive-by shootings were performed on Palestinians by cars that afterwards fled into Israel. For some reason, these cars were allowed to speed by army checkpoints without being bothered, when the IDF had killed a Palestinian taxi driver for trying the same thing just a few days before. I've not heard that any arrests have ever been made for those killings, despite promises from the Israeli government to investigate. And yet they claim to have good enough inteligence to justify a policy of pre-emptive assassination....

I don't think Israel is an inherantly evil nation or anything, and I certainly don't have a problem with jews, but many Israeli practices are deeply troubling. I know the Palestinians aren't easy neighbors, but I wouldn't want to live next to Israel either. There are plenty of villians on both sides of the fence. Unfortunately, my country tends to blindly follow Israel's lead, thanks to the remnants of a cold-war mentality that is both outdated and morally indefensable, and I think that serves to prolong the conflict. Frankly, I cannot see a peace agreement being worked out under the current circumstances. There is just too much of an imbalance of power. If peace is to come, I fear it will have to be imposed by a third party, and that will not happen as long as the US retains a blind support for one side.

 

[joespaniel]

Theres alot of people posting opinions here that have no idea what the **** they are talking about.

Learn something about history and reality first, and then shoot your mouth off. Its called intelligence as opposed to ignorance.

Isreal is not the bad-guy here, as media "talking-heads" would have you believe. They are no longer the underdog to be sure, they learned to be strong with US help. Isreal as it exists today was also made by the greed and hate of arab leaders that tried over and over to destroy it and its people, in multiple wars that Isreal sucessfully defended against.

Isreal has made first strikes against arab countries that were about to attack them, and I see no wrong in that either. If someone is about to punch you in the face you kick him in the balls first. Simple.

The situation today deserves the same mindset. Hammas should be destroyed completely. I am very much against killing Arafat as I subscribe to popular opinion that he has no control anyway.

Anyone who blames Isreal for protecting itself is misguided at best. There are many books and web-sites to read about the history of the region and its wars, politics and people. I suggest some people read them before making such foolish statements.

To G-Man and Eli -

You have my condolences for the loss of your countrymen, and my sympathy in the indignity of suffering yet another cowardly terror attack.

I hope some of the idiots posting this trash do not bother you. I know how it feels after what happened here three months ago.

And I hope the IDF get 'em for you too. Soon.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by joespaniel
Theres alot of people posting opinions here that have no idea what the **** they are talking about.

Learn something about history and reality first, and then shoot your mouth off. Its called intelligence as opposed to ignorance.

Isreal is not the bad-guy here, as media "talking-heads" would have you believe. They are no longer the underdog to be sure, they learned to be strong with US help. Isreal as it exists today was also made by the greed and hate of arab leaders that tried over and over to destroy it and its people, in multiple wars that Isreal sucessfully defended against.

Isreal has made first strikes against arab countries that were about to attack them, and I see no wrong in that either. If someone is about to punch you in the face you kick him in the balls first. Simple.

The situation today deserves the same mindset. Hammas should be destroyed completely. I am very much against killing Arafat as I subscribe to popular opinion that he has no control anyway.

Anyone who blames Isreal for protecting itself is misguided at best. There are many books and web-sites to read about the history of the region and its wars, politics and people. I suggest some people read them before making such foolish statements.

To G-Man and Eli -

You have my condolences for the loss of your countrymen, and my sympathy in the indignity of suffering yet another cowardly terror attack.

I hope some of the idiots posting this trash do not bother you. I know how it feels after what happened here three months ago.

And I hope the IDF get 'em for you too. Soon.

I go, buy a nuke from somewhere, and blow it to NY.
And if someone mumbles anything, I claim that 'US would attack against me!'



I didn't thought that Israel was full of 'bad-people'. Until now.