War with RB

[Bowsling]

I'm not sure we can even build boats in that lake..

If we target Starfall with our slow movers/cannons and a few knights to relieve their fears, we would probably have enough time to slip a spy into Eastern Dealers, spend a turn putting EPs on RB, and revolt the city.

 

[Aivoturso]

I'm not sure we can even build boats in that lake..

It's a sea. See the 1 3 tiles in the screenie.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Unfortunately we can't use offensive espy until our NAP has expired. CP or Poly wouldn't have any spies to do a bit more of our dirty work in the area, would they?

1. If the Great Person pops on Turn 176, then we can DoW on 175 and move our units into RB land, simultaneously putting the city into revolt to prevent Drafts/whips and halt . Then we can attack the city on turn 176, capturing the city before the Great Person pops. There is no violation of the treaty.

2. And Theoretically speaking, RB would not KNOW who did the espy mission against them, so they could not prove we violated the treaty anyway, so they can't challenge our honour. No matter who attacks them with espionage, they will blame us, anyway.

3. And even if they know... So what? Should we place ourselves and our allies at disadvantage to preserve our honor in the eyes of a Civ we are getting ready to invade? Why? It's not like we are ever going to be able to cut any more deals with them. They hate us and think we tricked them/strung them along (which we did... at least from their perspective).

Plus, They already cheated WPC out of the promised cities, so its not like their "honour" is clean anyway.

My point is that while sure, we want to keep to our treaties and keep our word and all that... I think we are way past the point of our "honour" even being a primary consideration in our dealings with RB. We are getting ready to try to crush them. All bets are off, and they know it.

 

[2metraninja]

Or With spies we could revolt the city. With multiple Spies and enough espy points we could do it multiple turns in a row. IIRC this will halt all GP production. Can anyone confirm? IIRC this will also prevent whips and drafts. We only need to do it enough times to get our units in position to take the city. Do we have any Spies in the area? Can we generate enough espy on them to do it?

We will have exactly 1 stationary spy in position to be able to try to revolt the city at t176, so we can hope that the removed cultural defense will be enough for our brave knights to capture the city, killing their newborn GP. We cant revolt the city before t176, because t175 is the first turn when we can spend unlimited espionage on RB.

I dont see anyway to take it by turn 176 without a 3-Move promoted Knight. Do we have any way to make such?

If we move towards it in t175, we can attack it on t176 and take it. Our NAP is until the beginning of t175.

With 2 spies we could also simultaneously poison their Water and Make unhappiness in the city. With a 8 faces and 8 faces we might be able to slow down their production enough to delay the great person.

This is good idea. But again, we cant spend espionage over RB until the beginning of t175. It will cost us 650 espionage to revolt Eastern Dealers with OB and no of our religion there. It would be great if we can cause unhappiness with the points we have accumulated right now. I doubt it, but it might be worth checking.

We can probably just take it if we can revolt it. I don't think forbidden fruit has the culture to keep that road, so we can just move our knights straight out of Lokapara and take/raze it.

Revolting does not work like this. It does not removes all culture as if it was captured and is in resistance. It is just as if the city is in anarchy from switching civics. Does not grow, does not starve, does not pay maintenance, does not make production or GP generation, even its cottages dont grow. And of course, its culture defense is down. For 1 turn.

Unfortunately we can't use offensive espy until our NAP has expired. CP or Poly wouldn't have any spies to do a bit more of our dirty work in the area, would they?

Aivo is right, we cant spend espionage or make espionage missions on them until beginning of t175. And yes, I thought about our allies doing this, but we were shortsightened on it, as we did not knew RB can get the GP so early. So I asked our allies and they have no spies nearby.

 

[2metraninja]

It's a sea. See the 1 3 tiles in the screenie.

Its a sea, but there cant be built big vessels. There is some limit in the game code - like - less than 9 tiles - it is a lake and fresh water, more then 9 tiles - it is a sea, less than 20 tiles - can only build workboats in it, etc...

 

[Sommerswerd]

Its a sea, but there cant be built big vessels. There is some limit in the game code - like - less than 9 tiles - it is a lake and fresh water, more then 9 tiles - it is a sea, less than 20 tiles - can only build workboats in it, etc...

Really? Are you sure?

I thought for sure that it is all naval (Lighthouse, TGH, WBs, Warships etc) or nothing. I never heard of being able to just build WBs... That would be bizzare.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Aivo is right, we cant spend espionage or make espionage missions on them until beginning of t175.

Right, OK... but we can max out our espionage and put everything we have against RB on turn 174. This will not result in us getting any espionage points on them on turn 174, but instead those points won't appear until turn 175. But on turn 175, the treaty is over so there is no accusation that they can make against us, and even if they did whine like babies about it so what? What are they going to do cancel the treaty?

So to me the question is whether we can get enough espionage to revolt the city in 1 turn. If we can, then we can max out espy, and revolt the city on turn 175 which will delay the the one turn we need in order to capture the city before the Great Person is born.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Now assuming that there is no way to get such amount of espy points in time, there is another way to make it work. We can slave a Spy and send him to the city now so that he gains a few turn stationary in the city. This will reduce the cost roughly 60 points per turn.

Also, we can max out our espy right now which will give us a larger discount on espionage spending when we do use it on turn 175, making the cost of the revolt cheaper.

Remember, to get this discount, we don't need to put the espionage points against RB. We can put them against anyone... say UCiv. The discount against RB will be the same no matter who we put the espionage against. That is how the total espionage discount mechanic works.

 

[talonschild]

EDIT: Never mind.


I'd be in favour of an espionage-fueled revolt if we can get spies there in time.

 

[vranasm]

the city revolt mission is usually expensive and it will be basically full cost for us with no discount stacked (the maximum is 50% after 5 turns so we would have to have there spies already).

While I find the idea attractive, we should be clear that it will cost us a lot of commerce, even if we decide to turn espy slider for 1 turn full on RB (and I am afraid it will be needed) it will cost us (delaying grenadiers etc)

I stopped using espy revolt missions in SP for long time because of this... it usually is better to throw there couple more units then trying to use the spies...

Dunno seems to me like hasty decision making... this should be planned for like T167 not like 3 turns before declaring war since it is a bit complicated matter.

Another matter is how the game handles city in revolt IBT, I am really not sure about the mechanics in SP and totally blind on the matter in MP/pitboss...

I liked the unhapiness hit more on this matter since it will basically lock out large number of citizens to build GPP... I like it maybe even more then city revolt which I consider risky without testing the behavior of IBT and when the city actually comes out of revolt in MP/pitboss

 

[YossarianLives]

CP razed another RB city.

 

[2metraninja]

the city revolt mission is usually expensive and it will be basically full cost for us with no discount stacked (the maximum is 50% after 5 turns so we would have to have there spies already).

Yes, it is indeed quite expensive mission and yes, we will have no discount, but this expensive (and insecure, as will will have only a single spy there) mission can be the difference between us killing this newborn GP and letting him go. This will have many many layers of affect on RB and on the whole tissue of the ISDG universe. RB can be compromised as not keeping their word if they promised this GP to Uciv, or they cant make their GA as they planned to get the money to give back to Uciv, thus stopping Uciv from giving them money for Cavalries, will drag RB's spirit down, etc, etc, etc... So it is more of a strategical move, rather than a tactical one.

I only hope that it works and RB dont have a way to speed up their freaking GP birth date, because we cant do anything about it before t176.

While I find the idea attractive, we should be clear that it will cost us a lot of commerce, even if we decide to turn espy slider for 1 turn full on RB (and I am afraid it will be needed) it will cost us (delaying grenadiers etc)

Yes, it will cost us. 1 turn later Grens, talking and asking (like begging) for more money our allies, there is the chance that we spend all this commerce and our lone spy just simply fail, so those coins were spent in vain, etc, etc. But we must make sure we give our brave knights the best possible chance to do their valorous deed

I stopped using espy revolt missions in SP for long time because of this... it usually is better to throw there couple more units then trying to use the spies...

When time is not of big matter, yeah, right, why not. But here it is a matter of a single turn to win gracefully or fail miserably. The city of Eastern Traders itself will not be a bad addition to our empire, but killing RB's GP will be just awesome and hilarious and will have huge impact on the course of the game.

Dunno seems to me like hasty decision making... this should be planned for like T167 not like 3 turns before declaring war since it is a bit complicated matter.

It is indeed emergency reaction. But we were told the RB GP will be born there in t178 and now it changes to t176. If it was in t178, we had the comfort of bringing canons, pinch muskets and all the force we need to take it with brute force, but alas, we are forced to hurry now.

Another matter is how the game handles city in revolt IBT, I am really not sure about the mechanics in SP and totally blind on the matter in MP/pitboss...

I liked the unhapiness hit more on this matter since it will basically lock out large number of citizens to build GPP... I like it maybe even more then city revolt which I consider risky without testing the behavior of IBT and when the city actually comes out of revolt in MP/pitboss

I think there must simply not be generated GP points if the city is in revolt, just as if the hammers are not adde, the food is not added, etc, but we wont even need to know this all for sure, because t176 is the first possible turn when we have stationary spy in Eastern Traders. So our only real chance is to kill off the newborn GP in t176.

 

[2metraninja]

CP razed another RB city.

Yes, indeed

I saw that too and logged in to see for myself what is the situation. The razed city is DitchDigger. But what is even great is CP went ahead and counter-attacked the RB counter-attackers stack, which was in position after they hit CP's stack killing 9 CP units and losing 18 units, catapults included in the last turn.

It was not Ot4e online, but another exceptional Russian CP player - Bemep. It seems CP decided to not sound the retreat, but push forward after the bloody fight last turn, and they managed to kill off all RB units in the fierce counter-counter-attack this turn, capturing 5 RB workers.

3 times Hip-Hip-Hooray! for our brave allies!

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, I know it is still not our achievement, but the resound and recoil of our allies victories we can enjoy even as only side spectators for now.

 

[Sommerswerd]

There are few things as nice to watch as the bouncing back-and-forth buttocks of a fine lady from the recoil of a just fired rifle Thanks!

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, I knew you will appreciate it. You are welcome.

 

[vranasm]

I think there must simply not be generated GP points if the city is in revolt, just as if the hammers are not adde, the food is not added, etc, but we wont even need to know this all for sure, because t176 is the first possible turn when we have stationary spy in Eastern Traders. So our only real chance is to kill off the newborn GP in t176.

well I am really not sure about IBTs behavior of city revolt, so I will try to not comment on it further... just wanted to point out that it would be worth the check before we commit and especially test in in pitboss ruleset not SP ruleset since in pitboss should be simultaneous turns (am I right?)

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, in pitboss there can be simultaneous turns and sequential, but we dont need to know this. Timeline will be hopefully like this:

t175 we declare war playing before RB and we enter RB territory in position to strike Dealers with our knights. our spy finally reaches the city and ends movement there. We set our espionage slider to 100% and set espionage towards RB only. Turn switches to t176, a new GP is born in Dealers for RB and he just stays there, he cannot move yet as we play before RB in the turn. We already have like 600 espionage points towards RB and a spy able to make espionage mission

t176 we make the City Revolt mission, Dealers is in revolt, culture down. We attack and capture the city killing the GP. If the revolt fails, we still attack and hopefully capture the city, but with bigger losses, but still manage to kill the GP.

That's it. Simple as that. Dependent on luck, but well, this is the best we can offer anyway.

 

[Sommerswerd]

And if they whip/draft/slave a Rifle (or other defensive unit)?

Attack anyway?

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, sure, we will have like 20 knights. 1, or 2 or 3 or 4 rifles wont stop us. Hopefully there will be not more than 1-2.