OK, this is my last performance on this thread, I have said what I wanted and even if I type fast I have other stuff on my agenda.Besides, i feel we are deviating somewhat; this thread is supposed to be about USSR; not Poland.
Well, I'm youngish - 31 this month - so it'll be ten years since I finished my degree and have been on the job market. When I finished my master's I went straight onto the dole. Now of course I've never known grinding poverty such as has been described on this thread - although, as I say, my girlfriend has - but to me, being able to afford a car means being rich.
Pots saperment! You are only 31??
Sir, you are wise way beyond your years.
I must also add that over half of my income has always gone on rent too, but this probably has more to do with ludicrous property prices in Britain than with anything else. I've been amazed, living in Singapore, to find that one can spend as little as a quarter of one's income, or even less, on rent; I've also been amazed to find other people there complaining about high rent and bickering over a few dollars a month. They should live in London for a bit and learn to appreciate what they've got!
It is quite expensive here as well.
[Luceafarul] To add to your point, it's of course worth mentioning that the countries of eastern Europe never had colonial empires like those of western Europe. Thus, the latter exploited the wealth and resources of half the globe, while the former did not. That created a big difference between them long before communism ever appeared on the scene.
Yes of course, a very good point.
I deserve a jolly good trashing for not having mentioned that.
As I said before , I over did it, because Im somewhat edgy lately, meaning my feelings got in the way of my better judgement.
No problem, brother, we are all friends here even if we bark a little at times.
What I know for sure is that my dad who was brought up in the centre of Warsaw had it really tough, his parents were divorced and he lived with his half-brother and mother in an apartment (dont know size). Grandmother was a seamstress, money was short. Only my fathers older half-brother went to the university whilst my dad had to get a job when he turned eighteen. They never could afford a car, didnt get a phone or TV until the eighties<snip>.
I wasn't brought up in abundance either.
Admittedly we had a small house, which was from my great grandfather. But we had no water closet; no bathroom, and my old man who sometimes had to go ill at work since he couldn't afford staying at home got his first car when I was 11. Later in life, after ruining my first marriage and health, I even lived on the streets for an admittedly short while. Contrary to some people's opinion, not everybody in the West grew up with Mercedes and swimmingpools (I am from Norway, by the way).
And keep in mind:
1. Poland was probably the country that suffered most during ww2 and rebuilding demanded quite an effort.
2. The Yanks didn't stuff your pockets with money, as they did with ours (I realize of course that this was not for altruistic motives, but it helped).
3. During the whole Cold War, the Western countries utilized their inherited economic superiority to keep Eastern Bloc countries down (like the COCOM rules).
4. The benefit of neo-colonialism, as pointed out by Plotinus, should also not be forgotten.
But things are improving, all dough a bit slowly as of late, still nine million people out of thirty-eight million have the same high standards of living as in Sweden, which has a total population of nine million.
I am not so optimistic about this, seeing a new underclass emerging.
And the argument about Sweden doesn't make much sense to me, a society should always be judged by how it treats it least fortunate.
The commie card was meant as somewhat of a joke. Note the smiley.
I understood that much, but I was addressing everybody.
There are a lot of usual suspects roaming freely around here who usually would pull that out.
Academics had it easier as long as they kept themselves clear of anti communist activities.
Much like my fathers half brother who was a professor in History and Polish and is a dean of an university now.
I never disagreed with that, but it was mentioned because somebody was claiming that everybody was living in squalor.
If I remember correctly, typewriters where licensed much like guns are nowadays.
I can't verify that either, but I will check it out.
About the "The Shah of Shahs" thing, admittedly that regime in Iran is often said to be one of the harshest ever in the world, and I do not believe Poland was as bad. All dough not as bad, not dissimilar methods were used against dissidents in Poland, and the people you know you havent described as any sort of dissidents, yes people who did nothing forbidden could have it rather comfortable, so chill on the moron calling mister.
No chilling; reread the first paragraph above yourself.
There is such a thing as proportions, if not any political or historical debate is meaningless.
Besides, I knew people who got into difficulties with the authorites, even my mother-in-law was fired during the time of martial law for refusing to sign an oath of loyalty to the government. I also know people who experienced the riots in 1970 in Szcecin (my wife's city).
I also don't know if you ever thought about this, but no oppositionals got so much media attention as the dissidents in the Eastern Bloc. Noam Chomsky and Ed Herman made an instructive in "Manufacturing Consent" where they compared the murder of Popieluszko with those of a couple of hundred of clergy in El Salvador.
Try guessing which of those the media focused on?
It is my humble opinion that oppositionals in US client states were victims of much harsher treatment and ran greater personal risks, without that being an excuse for political oppression and violation of human rights in your country, of course.
Glad you like Kapuscinski, which one is your favourite book? Mine is The Emperor.
Actually that is mine too, together with the one about the Shah.
"Good bye Lenin" was a nice movie, was it not? I just mentioned it as something someone could watch if interested in those times, is all.
Yes it is good and yes I see your point then.
The Others my parents recommend, apparently manages to show the downsides of communist East Germany very well. What is shown is reportedly (by my mom) worse than what was going on in Poland. Admittedly she does not have so much experience of those things.
I believe that STASI was more eager than any other similar organization elsewhere.
That said, people here was also monitored and registered for political activities not appreciated by the rulers.
In the eighties? my mom got her car just before the stan wojenny.
OK, slight misunderstanding then.
Well I have heard it claimed that Poland would have at least been as wealthy as Spain is today if it werent for the commies. Probably would have at least one good car manufacturer, maybe even some avionics
I would have liked to see the argumentation for that.
I would also like to think how the distribution of wealth would have been, how many of the
hoi polloi who would have had higher education etc.
A country being wealthy doesn't mean its citizen being it as well.
There where strict restrictions on car manufacture and development in Commie Poland so that the economy planers would have it easier to plan.
I am aware of the downfalls of a centrally planned economy.
On the other side, and on the risk of repeating myself; capitalism is also an underachiever in central issues regarding human welfare.
Actually, some people in the blog found by FranciscoHernan were expressing nostalgia... Of course, these people were remembering their young years, when grass was greener and the sun was brighter, not the regime itself. But if their lives had been REALLY bad under that regime, they wouldn't remember it with warm feelings...
That would have been the case anywhere.But some people lives are much worse now. Just think about the drastic decline in life expectancy.
"The one who does not regret the fall of USSR has no heart. The one who thinks that it was possible to keep the USSR as it was, has no brains".
Sounds like a variation over that conservative/radical triteness attributed to Clemenceau, Churchill et alt. It has a ring of truth around it, some reforms would been called for. But if I switched "USSR" with "USA" the saying would still make sense..
Compare the life of the average Polish city-dweller today to the average Polish city-dweller in the 70s.
There are certain difficulties involved in that.
In the 70s the economy was controlled by the state, of course. Currently the free market rules.
I think the free market mostly rules the poor there as everywhere else.
The Polish economy was not allowed to prosper. When I say "poor", I am comparing what was to what could have been.
Counterfactual history is bunk; to paraphrase Henry Ford.
And as already noted; what is important is not for the "economy" to prosper, but for the people to do so. That is by no means necessarily the same.
Spending over half of the income of two teachers on rent of a small 1 bedroom apartment is not acceptable, in Poland, today.
But homelessness for non-teachers obviously is for the "free market".
It was certainly not acceptable in the 70s and 80s, either. That is how I derive the term "poor"
Then you have another definition than me. besides, that would certainly invalidate your claim that everybody was poor, because neither you nor anybody else should tell me with a straight face that everybody were in such a situation.
Most people? Everyone made almost the same. That's communism for ya
If that was true, it was not at all bad.
You had to wait 5-15 years for an apartment.
I see that the hyperinflation has brought it up to 15 years now. By tomorrow 30 is probably to be expected.
You spend most of your life savings for one, then wait for many years.. and when you finally get it, it's a small POS that doesn't really suit a family of 5.
I have seen quite another reality, so this just can't be the general truth.
But I wonder if regional variations could play a part. Chestochowa was never exactly the most advanced and prosperous part of Poland.
And please correct me if I am wrong; isn't it like that that many people don't get apartments today simply because they can't afford it?
On top of that there is so much bureaucracy to make you want to rip your hair out, the simplest things take months if not years to accomplish, the stores are empty, you are unable to fully express yourself, especially if you had anti-communist views (which most people had), you are able to travel outside of the country, but once again the bureaucracy is a huge pain and basically prevents most people from doing so..
Again I know people who would not recognize all this to put it mildly (and still; they were not evil party members).
But indeed, life wasn't all rosy. It never is for many people anywhere.
I heard that life in Moscow and East Germany wasn't "that bad", but elsewhere in the East Bloc? Pshhh
Um, as far as I know the living standard of the majority in Moscow was below that of for instance Budapest, Praha or Warszawa.
