Was there this much backlash for previous Civ games?

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People don't like calling themselves racists or anti-woke, whatever, so they often write reviews about other things (especially bots). But you could search steam forum and see how discussion is going https://steamcommunity.com/app/1295...idforum=4337609376658501369&include_deleted=1

The above isn't significant enough to be a factor. Your link has 331 reviews with one, or both, of those terms in them. Let's just say all of those reviews are bad for the reason the query states. Steam has a total of over 25k reviews according to this link. That means those people consist of 0.012% of the players. A percent of a percent is not enough to add them as a factor for anything.
 
The above isn't significant enough to be a factor. Your link has 331 reviews with one, or both, of those terms in them. Let's just say all of those reviews are bad for the reason the query states. Steam has a total of over 25k reviews according to this link. That means those people consist of 0.012% of the players. A percent of a percent is not enough to add them as a factor for anything.
There's no connection between number of discussions and number of reviews, especially if bots are involved. My post was about whether there's anti-woke discourse around Civ7 and it's clearly there.

Speaking about numbers, there is no way to calculate the amount of such reviews, because we have, potentially 3 types of them:
  1. Direct anti-woke reviews like the one I've linked. Those should be easy to find, unless they are mostly in non-English languages, so it really needs some research.
  2. Comments written by people who are anti-woke, but hide it. No way to find them.
  3. Comments written by bots. We can't find them, but there are a lot of reviews, which could be written by bots - if you see the game being refunded and the account is private, this could be a bot. Also, I've seen at least one very suspicious account with 0 games and only 1 activity - this review on refunded Civilization.
I don't want to convince anyone that anti-woke movement caused significant number of negative reviews. I just want to say that it's clearly a factor and we don't know how big it is.
 
And by all accounts, it's very small.

There are several reasons this game has been received poorly, "anti-woke" just isn't a large one by any measure. The primary reasons this game has been received poorly are UI, civ switching/age system, and a lack of features.
Could you post any evidence that it's small? We've seen review-bombing of various projects by anti-woke bots before and it was in many thousands.

When I wrote "we don't know", we really don't have enough information. Like literally. The number could be anything between 0.1% and 99%.
 
There's no connection between number of discussions and number of reviews, especially if bots are involved. My post was about whether there's anti-woke discourse around Civ7 and it's clearly there.

Speaking about numbers, there is no way to calculate the amount of such reviews, because we have, potentially 3 types of them:
  1. Direct anti-woke reviews like the one I've linked. Those should be easy to find, unless they are mostly in non-English languages, so it really needs some research.
  2. Comments written by people who are anti-woke, but hide it. No way to find them.
  3. Comments written by bots. We can't find them, but there are a lot of reviews, which could be written by bots - if you see the game being refunded and the account is private, this could be a bot. Also, I've seen at least one very suspicious account with 0 games and only 1 activity - this review on refunded Civilization.
I don't want to convince anyone that anti-woke movement caused significant number of negative reviews. I just want to say that it's clearly a factor and we don't know how big it is.

So you say state it isn't about the number of reviews, yet you gave a link with those reviews. No offense, but don't use something as evidence of your argument and then state it doesn't matter. No offense intended and I apologize if its taken that way.

My point is the number is insignificant. By that account, why can't we include in your original list the players who just don't have the mental capacity, reason skills, or patience for this type of game? What about the players who have copies of the game that aren't in their native language, or the players that don't have the time? These are also concerns.

IMO it feels like people like to use the phrase 'anti-woke' to make it more politicized, or make their argument more dramatic. You're arguing about an insignificant number. My question is, do you really thing Firaxis/2K is even considering those people in their planning/discussions?
 
Could you post any evidence that it's small? We've seen review-bombing of various projects by anti-woke bots before and it was in many thousands.

Technically it should be you who post the evidence. His/Her statement is a counter to yours. If you have already posted that evidence here, I missed it.
 
You're arguing about an insignificant number.
By what account? What data you have to consider this number insignificant?

When Acolyte was review bombed by bots, they mostly complain about Star Wars being ruined, not about crew being representative.
Technically it should be you who post the evidence. His/Her statement is a counter to yours. If you have already posted that evidence here, I missed it.
My claim is what we don't know the number. From formal logic, that's statement which doesn't require proving.
 
There are too many factors into play. To name a few:
1. High expectations from leading franchise
2. Age transition with age switching is a change which many people don't accept and are angry about it
3. Anti-woke movement, which potentially could include both human reviews and bots

All in all, I'm glad Firaxis had courage for revolutionary changes and I hope the game will do well despite those reviews.

You’ve claimed both that it’s a factor, and also that you don’t know if it’s a factor. It’s hard to understand the point you’re making.
 
You’ve claimed both that it’s a factor, and also that you don’t know if it’s a factor. It’s hard to understand the point you’re making.
It's clearly a factor, because there's anti-woke discourse in forums (I posted a link to prove), and some directly anti-woke reviews (I posted a link with example).

We just don't know how big the factor is, because in addition to direct anti-woke reviews, there could be any number of reviews, where negativity is caused by the game "wokeness", but review doesn't include this.

That's my point. It's a factor, and we don't know how big it is. Now, could anyone claiming that the factor is insignificant post any supporting facts?
 
If your point is it’s a factor but also maybe a totally insignificant non-factor then it seems sort of impossible to agree or disagree with you, and I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to provide to you. Or how it’s even relevant to a discussion of what is driving negative sentiment. Anything could be a factor or non-factor, I could go find a review that says they didn’t like the color scheme and get all dramatic about how it could or couldn’t be a factor and we just don’t know .. but why? I guess that’s what I’m missing here.
 
We just don't know how big the factor is, because in addition to direct anti-woke reviews, there could be any number of reviews, where negativity is caused by the game "wokeness", but review doesn't include this.
Agreed - I suspect that a number (impossible to quantify) of people haven't bought / don't like the game yet due to an underwhelming choice of leaders/Civs but wouldn't necessarily express it as anti-woke.
 
If your point is it’s a factor but also maybe a totally insignificant non-factor then it seems sort of impossible to agree or disagree with you, and I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to provide to you. Or how it’s even relevant to a discussion of what is driving negative sentiment. Anything could be a factor or non-factor, I could go find a review that says they didn’t like the color scheme and get all dramatic about how it could or couldn’t be a factor and we just don’t know .. but why? I guess that’s what I’m missing here.
I think you need to reread my posts. My point is directly this "It's clearly a factor, but we don't know how big it is". I provided direct evidence why it's a factor and written clear arguments about potential size of the factor. Again, I'm not trying to prove how big the factor is, just what it's there and it has hidden component of unknown size.

In response I have some people claiming that the factor is insignificant without any proves. That's it.
 
My understanding of the word factor excludes something being a factor if it is as of yet unknown if it is a factor or not. I would agree it’s potentially a factor if you were to provide some evidence it was moving the needle in some way. Otherwise anything is a factor. I could as easily say “civ 7 encourages you to do colonial stuff, so actually it’s an anti-woke game itself and that’s a hidden component of unknown size impacting reception” and demand you prove me wrong. Or silly stuff like that.
 
When Civ IV was released in 2006, Steam essentially was not yet a thing (it existed, but it was brand new and hadn't yet become a significant player). When Civ V was released in 2011, Steam was new to popular use and the culture of reviewing game on Steam had not yet developed (Civ V got more review in 2024 than in the year immediately after its release!). Even Civ VI, far more recently, received a lot less reviews right at release on Steam than Civ VII did - the bulk of Civ VI steam review come from around 2020 or so.

That makes any comparison extremely dicey, because for all these games the reviews are overwhelmingly dominated by reviews made years and years after release, after improvements had been made, but also, after people had time to get used to the changes that were made. A lot, and I mean a *lot* of people take a long time to get used to change, and will initially react with hostility to things being made differently than before (in a way they didn't ask for). Civ III and Civ V, which were both perceived as changing a lot of things about the game, were both hit *hard* by this in initial response on these forums, while Civ IV and Civ VI (which largely continued a lot of those changes, but years later, after people had gotten used to them) were not nearly as affected. None of which is visible in Steam because we don,t have many (Civ V) or any (Civ III) reviews from their early days. Civ VII, of course, changes a *lot*, perhaps more than any other Civ games before it, so it's met with that same kind of hostility.

This makes comparisons of reception between Civ games very difficult, and it also makes it very hard to determine what response to new features is actually going to stand the test of time (ie, people still won't like the feature five years from now), and what response to new feature will wane off as people get used to the change and learn to appreciate it. A lot of things that are being reviewed badly now will likely be much more appreciated down the roads. Others won't. And we have very little mean of teasing out which is which right now.

(Responses to UI issues are an entirely separate and thoroughly valid thing).
 
My understanding of the word factor excludes something being a factor if it is as of yet unknown if it is a factor or not. I would agree it’s potentially a factor if you were to provide some evidence it was moving the needle in some way. Otherwise anything is a factor. I could as easily say “civ 7 encourages you to do colonial stuff, so actually it’s an anti-woke game itself and that’s a hidden component of unknown size impacting reception” and demand you prove me wrong. Or silly stuff like that.
I'm repeating myself, but I've posted links to prove it's a factor, the question is only in size. If you ignore the things I'm write it's not a discussion, actually.
 
I believe this has something to do with the unhappiness of the people in general, and that we see that unpolite behaviour in the internet is just normal these days.
This is certain true in the United States as compared to the past, I can't speak to other countries.

The primary reasons this game has been received poorly are UI,
People (like me) will say the game has major UI issues but would rate the game positively. I don't think that's the difference (with few a few exceptions, of course) in who likes and doesn't like the game.

I think there's also an expectation that because you have played civ before you will immediately have a command of Civ 7. If the UI was great that might be true, but if you don't have the expectation in the first place you are more likely to like the game. I guess is if you game a young me this game I would like it like I liked Civ 2.
 
But size is the most important element indicating if something is a factor or not? I feel like we are operating on different definitions of words here, so I’ll just say agree to disagree I guess.
 
I think a more interesting question might instead be, "would there be this much backlash for previous Civ games were they released today?" And I would say: yes, almost certainly. In my estimation it's less a matter of objective quality-on-release, and more a matter of how video games, as consumer culture, are subjective to the current historical moment and broader discourse. There are a few factors going into this, and forgive the following essay; I'll give a summary at the end.

The first is socioeconomic, and it ultimately all stems from this in some way or another. This goes beyond the price tag of the game itself: while we can point out that this game is priced relative to inflation, we must also point out that incomes have not kept up with the same inflation—to say nothing of the price still being essentially pegged to the US dollar, which has further knock-on effects for people around the world trying to afford it. People will be more critical and more discerning the relatively bigger of a slice something takes out of their income. This is a doubled problem because the cost of making games has concomitantly increased—whether the publisher decides to make the consumer foot the bill for these rising costs or not, as they have with Civ VII.

The second follows naturally from the socioeconomic factor, and it's about uncertainty: basically, things are more expensive and politics in previously steady-state Western countries are more volatile and partisan. These two things act on one another to make social discourse as a whole more fraught, whether we're on a video game forum or on the street. People broadly feel both unable to improve their socioeconomic status and stability, and following that unable to affect politics in such a way as to ameliorate these problems. We recognise the connection between economics and politics—you could make the argument that, more than ever before, democratic politics is consciously about economics and the rest is secondary. Certainly every politician understands this. So, we end up in a situation where people not only feel economically insecure, but simultaneously unable to prepare for the future: broadly feeling demoralised about the capacity for political systems to change this and their own capacity to affect those political systems.

The third factor is a bigger one, and admittedly more theoretical, but bear with me. What the above points converge on is consumer culture, the form of political and economic expression that largely became dominant worldwide in the late 20th century. People express themselves and identify themselves through their consumer choices. At the same time, and particularly in the modern internet age, people feel more able than ever to affect their consumption at the site of its production: to influence game developers, film producers, food manufacturers, various brands, and so on. Normally this isn't an area of great contention, because people either have bigger problems and ways to deal with them, or they're more or less content. Today, people do have bigger problems—the first factor—but are hindered in their expression by their perceived inability to do anything about them—the second factor. So, political and socioeconomic expression converge on consumer culture, both directly to affect change with regards to consumption itself—things like food safety and game release quality, for example—and indirectly, to express frustration about problems beyond sites and items of consumer culture but indelibly tied to them. This is nothing especially new: the US National Consumers League was formed in 1899 and agitated for various social reforms from the angle that individual citizen-consumers deserved a right to determine the ethics and standards of their purchasing options. We aren't too different—though the Chicago meatpacking industry of the early 1900s was maybe a bit more awful than game development.

Think of it this way: people are more likely to write a complaint or praise for a video game where they think a developer or publisher will see it, than to do the same for their local elected political representative. Posting about the problems surrounding Civ VII, people generally—consciously or unconsciously—feel like they have a right to consumption of a certain quality standard, and that they can directly affect, through social discourse, the quality and content of consumer products. So, they post on forums and social media in the desire to persuade or dissuade game developers and publishers about issues that simultaneously involve the game directly, yet indirectly are tied one way or another to surrounding political and economic factors. On top of this, there are year by year more and more people taking part on social media, so the number of conversations and conversants in this discourse increases, thereby becoming more visible, thereby seeming bigger in absolute terms. Part of all of this comes down to: there really were just fewer people talking about past games in this same franchise. Consider the fact that on these very forums the General Discussion for Civ VII, released one month ago, has 257,000 posts, while Civ VI, released almost a decade ago, has 424,000.

In summary: we want to enjoy playing a game, but it becomes harder to just enjoy a game because the world is uncertain, polarised, and difficult. Games are expensive and we have less money with which to buy them. Games cost more and publishers control the process of development and publication in order to (subjectively) maximise profits against these costs. We identify with our articles of consumption, feeling an increasingly personal investment in them and a relatively high degree of agency in defining their content and quality. This leads to greater criticism and consciousness of perceived flaws in a game, and resulting discourse which frames discussion about it. There are more people talking about games on social media, which means that the number of participants in this discourse is larger, its inertia greater, and polarisation—reflecting external political and economic polarisation—increases in step.

This isn't to say that this or any game is flawless, or that there is nothing to complain about or no reason to lodge complaints. Instead I think it's a good idea to consider the why of why we go online to spend a great deal of time in heated discussions about an article of consumer culture, what we expect our goals and outcomes to be, and more broadly how certain game flaws (considering all games ship with bugs, questionable design choices, etc.) become discursively framed as fundamental "problems" while others are positively excluded from this same discourse.
 
Isn’t it way more likely that the ui is kind of exceptionally bad for a game like this, and reviews are going to improve a lot and quickly when they fix it? Occam’s razor and all that. If you take the reviews at face value this is what it points to.
 
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