Waterboarding = Torture

[RedRalph]

From BBC:

Mr McConnell said the legal test for torture should be "pretty simple"
US national intelligence chief Mike McConnell has said the interrogation technique of water-boarding "would be torture" if he were subjected to it.
Mr McConnell said it would also be torture if water-boarding, which involves simulated drowning, resulted in water entering a detainee's lungs.

He told the New Yorker there would be a "huge penalty" for anyone using it if it was ever determined to be torture.

The US attorney-general has declined to rule on whether the method is torture.

However, Michael Mukasey said during his Senate confirmation hearing that water-boarding was "repugnant to me" and that he would institute a review.



In December, the House of Representatives approved a bill that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation techniques such as water-boarding.

President George W Bush has threatened to veto the bill, which would require the agency to follow the rules adopted by the US Army and abide by the Geneva Conventions, if the Senate passes it.



In the interview with the New Yorker, the US Director of National Intelligence said he would regard water-boarding as torture if it was used against him.

The controversial technique involves a prisoner being stretched on his back, having a cloth pushed into his mouth and/or plastic film placed over his face and having water poured onto his face. He gags almost immediately.

"If I had water draining into my nose, oh God, I just can't imagine how painful!" he told the magazine.



Prisoner bound to a board with feet raised, and cellophane wrapped round head. Water is poured onto face and is said to produce a fear of drowning




"Whether it's torture by anybody else's definition, for me it would be torture."

Mr McConnell said the legal test for torture should be "pretty simple".

"Is it excruciatingly painful to the point of forcing someone to say something because of the pain?" he added.

But the retired vice-admiral declined for legal reasons to say whether the technique should be considered torture by the US government.

"If it ever is determined to be torture, there will be a huge penalty to be paid for anyone engaging in it," he said.

CIA officials have been quoted as saying that water-boarding has been used on three prisoners since 2001, including al-Qaeda recruiter Abu Zubaydah, but on nobody since 2003.

In July 2007, President Bush signed a controversial executive order on the treatment of suspects detained by the CIA which did not outlaw the agency's use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as water-boarding.

MobBoss, I'd like to hear your opinion in particular on this man's definition. Does he not know what he's talking about?

 

[BasketCase]

That medieval trick where they squeeze your thumbs in a vise and crush the bones? That's torture.

Or the one where they tie your arms behind your back and hoist you into the air by the wrists? There was one variation where the victim was hoisted like that with six-hundred-pound weights (yes, I mean literally six hundred pounds) tied to his ankles. Few victims survived that one.

Reading the OP wasn't so pleasant either. Believe me, today's terrorists are getting off easy. No dice, RedRalph--I've got bigger problems on my mind right now.

 

[George2816]

That medieval trick where they squeeze your thumbs in a vise and crush the bones? That's torture.

Or the one where they tie your arms behind your back and hoist you into the air by the wrists? There was one variation where the victim was hoisted like that with six-hundred-pound weights (yes, I mean literally six hundred pounds) tied to his ankles. Few victims survived that one.

Reading the OP wasn't so pleasant either. Believe me, today's terrorists are getting off easy. No dice, RedRalph--I've got bigger problems on my mind right now.

One man's terrorists is another man freedom fighter! Too bad israel occupied lebanon for too long otherwise hezbollah would never of existed!

 

[lovett]

That medieval trick where they squeeze your thumbs in a vise and crush the bones? That's torture.

Or the one where they tie your arms behind your back and hoist you into the air by the wrists? There was one variation where the victim was hoisted like that with six-hundred-pound weights (yes, I mean literally six hundred pounds) tied to his ankles. Few victims survived that one.

Reading the OP wasn't so pleasant either. Believe me, today's terrorists are getting off easy. No dice, RedRalph--I've got bigger problems on my mind right now.

So, are you saying you don't think waterboarding is torture?
Or thats it doesn't matter if it is terrorists who are tortured?

Incidentally, does anyone know what convention is on Chinese water torture and such like?
I mean, its presumably not particularily painfull, but it does actually have 'torture' s part of the description...

 

[Jawz II]

So because stealing a million dollars from a bank is robbery, punching an old lady in the face and running away with her purse is not, is what youre saying Basket Case.

Awesome logic. Will serve you well in life, I feel.

 

[lovett]

So because stealing a million dollars from a bank is robbery, punching an old lady in the face and running away with her purse is not, is what youre saying Basket Case.

Nah, its assault and theft

 

[Julian Delphiki]

This is really simple;

Done by US = not torture.
Done by anyone else = torture.

 

[silver 2039]

Done by US = not torture.
Done by anyone else = torture.

Exactly! Now you understand.

Because:

US=Good
Terrorists=Evil

Duh its fairly simple. I mean even a child should be able to get it.

 

[Elrohir]

I don't think we should use waterboarding, generally speaking. I'd leave it as an option in emergencies (IE, we've got Osama Bin Laden and we have 24 hours to get the information we need or New York gets nuked) but generally I don't think it is a good option.

But with that said....one mans definition of what constitutes torture is kind of weak. It very well may be torture, but if so, it isn't because of this guys opinion on it.

And....am I the only one who is actually interested in being waterboarded, just so I know what its like? Come on, I'm a civilian, this guy is an intelligence officer. Why am I more willing to "investigate things firsthand" than he is?

One man's terrorists is another man freedom fighter! Too bad israel occupied lebanon for too long otherwise hezbollah would never of existed!

Too bad we're not talking about Hezbollah!

Once again George, you totally fail at being relevant.

 

[ArneHD]

Why torture anyway? There are far better ways to acquire information than torture. Infact, I would go as far as to say that only the lazy or inept torture.

 

[Riffraff]

But with that said....one mans definition of what constitutes torture is kind of weak. It very well may be torture, but if so, it isn't because of this guys opinion on it.

And....am I the only one who is actually interested in being waterboarded, just so I know what its like? Come on, I'm a civilian, this guy is an intelligence officer. Why am I more willing to "investigate things firsthand" than he is?

Not 100pro sure what you meant with the first paragraph, but if you're saying that calling waterboarding torture is ambiguos then you're wrong. Causing severe pshycological pain (feeling of immedeate death) for obtaining information is a textbook definition.

About your second paragraph, there was a video referred to here a while ago, wherin journalist did just that. There were 3 levels of intensity, on which he lasted rougly 1 second on the final one before giving the stop signal. And that was in a controlled enviroment with him actually knowing that nothing was gonna happen.

 

[Merkinball]

This is really simple;

Done by US = not torture.
Done by anyone else = torture.

Do you think anyone else is going to waste their time on waterboarding?

 

[Atticus]

And....am I the only one who is actually interested in being waterboarded, just so I know what its like? Come on, I'm a civilian, this guy is an intelligence officer. Why am I more willing to "investigate things firsthand" than he is?

Maybe he has seen waterboarding as a part of his training. You can try waterboarding at home too! You don't need fancy eqipment, just a friend to pour water on you. Here are some instructions to get started.

I'd like to see those who don't think it's torture to try it out*. Send a clip of it to Youtube and link here. Unfrutunately those scumbags do not probably have any friends to assist them.


*) Not referring to Elrohir.

 

[Elrohir]

Not 100pro sure what you meant with the first paragraph, but if you're saying that calling waterboarding torture is ambiguos then you're wrong. Causing severe pshycological pain (feeling of immedeate death) for obtaining information is a textbook definition.

About your second paragraph, there was a video referred to here a while ago, wherin journalist did just that. There were 3 levels of intensity, on which he lasted rougly 1 second on the final one before giving the stop signal. And that was in a controlled enviroment with him actually knowing that nothing was gonna happen.

Thanks for informing me of my wrongness.

I know, just as I know that the interrogators that use waterboarding have to be waterboarded themselves beforehand as part of their training. I'm not talking about someone else doing it, I'm talking about me doing it, and how it is odd that I'm willing the try it (even though I'll almost certainly never be allowed to do so) but he isn't.

Maybe he has seen waterboarding as a part of his training. You can try waterboarding at home too! You don't need fancy eqipment, just a friend to pour water on you. Here are some instructions to get started.

I'd like to see those who don't think it's torture to try it out*. Send a clip of it to Youtube and link here. Unfrutunately those scumbags do not probably have any friends to assist them.


*) Not referring to Elrohir.

Nah, waterboarding is something I'm not going to do with a friend in my garage. Doesn't mean it's torture (Doesn't mean that it isn't, either) just that there's the potential for something bad to happen, so I'd like to do it with someone who knows what they're doing - like CIA interrogators. But if given the opportunity to do so, I definitely would. I probably would regret it, but hey, I'd go for it.

 

[Arwon]

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Do you think anyone else is going to waste their time on waterboarding?

Agreed - it is waste of time.

 

[Merkinball]

Agreed - it is waste of time.

I know right? Why quarter "torture" when you can REALLY TORTURE!

And it's pretty easy to get away with too, when you can just point at the US, bemoan waterboarding, and then turn around and snicker childishly as you remove fingernails and turn up the voltage.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Am i being followed that closely ? Landlord said that basement was 100% sound proof .

 

[Aegis]

I'd rather be water boarded than any other form of torture.

 

[skadistic]

I think torture should at least inflict pain. No pain, no torture.