You are confusing good actions and good intentions. Your good intentions of keeping innocents alive has lead you to be convinced that we can take bad actions.
Waterboarding
- Thread starter Patricman
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Berzerker
Deity
Millions of people have been murdered, is that real enough for you? And in each case I'd gladly torture the murderer if doing so would save their victim(s). You'd let 'em die in the name of morality...
Berzerker
Deity
Why is it a bad action to water board a would be murderer to save their victim's life? Nobody is explaining that to me, all I get are "human rights" blah blah blah (as if the victim has none). What are y'all gonna do with the nutcase who just murdered someone's kid? Put 'em in a cage? What happened to their human rights? All you did was allow an innocent person to be murdered.
If you've captured them, they are no longer would be murderers.
Berzerker
Deity
You've captured them, you haven't prevented their attack. Thats why we're water boarding them, to prevent the attack. So whats yer answer? You didn't explain why its bad.
Preventing what attack? If there really is an imminent attack, all they have to do is lie for long enough for the attack to go off. The water boarding that we have confessed to happened after the person had been detained for long enough that they wouldn't have had current actionable intelligence on an imminent attack.
Berzerker
Deity
According to what I've heard, the sheik broke within seconds of water boarding. If we had him on 9/8-10 we could have prevented the attack. You didn't answer the question again. Why is it bad to water board a would be murderer to save the lives of his victims?
This is like pulling teeth
1. We didn't have him on 9/8-10 and what he broke to us was not the kind of child-in-the-sand or jack bauer scenario that righties masturbate over.According to what I've heard, the sheik broke within seconds of water boarding. If we had him on 9/8-10 we could have prevented the attack. You didn't answer the question again. Why is it bad to water board a would be murderer to save the lives of his victims?
This is like pulling teeth
2. If we would have known enough of what to ask him, would would already know enough to take action.
3. With the stakes as high as 9/11, he could have "broken" by feeding us lies or just enough deception to buy time.
And its not like pulling teeth. I am feeling no pain.
Mandeville
Prince
Waterboarding might get someone to talk. It certainly won't get them to tell you the truth. In fact, it might even harm your chances of getting reliable information. We all know the troubles the United States has had with obtaining reliable information.
Berzerker
Deity
From what I've heard he gave us actionable intel. So yer argument is water boarding a would be murderer is bad because we didn't capture the sheik before 9/11?
How about a NSA bulletin just a few weeks old at the time about Osama determined to attack within the USA? Could we ask him about that?
Could have, but he feared for his life. And guess what we'd do to him if he didn't tell us about the attack? More waterboarding, this time just for fun. You aren't answering the question and I'm tired of trying to get an answer, none of what you just posted explains why its bad to water board a would be murderer? You're just arguing about its effectiveness, its more effective than reading the scumbag his "rights" and feeding him 3 times a day until his trial in a couple years.
And its not like pulling teeth. I am feeling no pain.[/QUOTE]
You'll feel it when the meds wear off... or you re-read your posts. Being a smart ass only works when you got something smart to post.
Mandeville
Prince
I am dying to see a picture of you because I doubt you're man enough to be water boarded yourself.
Berzerker
Deity
Apparently the sheik was singing right away, and telling the truth. May be partly why we haven't been hit here since 9/11
Mandeville
Prince
Well I hope every single person you waterboard is that Shiek then. I am positive that will be the case since you had such overwhelming success.
Oh it might also be partly why these people slice off your head while youre still conscious, no?
Reading your posts makes me aware of that.Being a smart ass only works when you got something smart to post.
Berzerker
Deity
You can tell that much from a picture? I find the written word more indicative of character, and I've been close enough to drowning on several occasions to know what it feels like. I'm sure most people know what it feels like, it feels like yer drowning.
But if you're dying to see me, I'm in Topeka. How much you paying? I'll be waterboarded if you make it worth my time. I'll take 3 grand and you pay.
Berzerker
Deity
Reading your posts makes me aware of that.
But thats yer role, you're the smart ass on the forum (and I'm not knocking that, you usually have me chuckling) but you haven't brought the smart this time and all I see is the..ahem...
You still didn't answer the question
Berzerker
Deity
The jihadists cut off the head of Daniel Pearl because we were water boarding Jihadists? What does that tell you? Well, aside from your argument going down in flames. It tells me they dont care about guilt and innocence, and it does us no good to water board the innocent, so we do care. So, would you let all those people die on 9/11 rather than water board the sheik on 9/8-10?
Mandeville
Prince
Who is being the smart ass if you're the one digesting posts like that? I am simply saying you cant torture someone and expect these people to hold themselves to the same or higher values and you know that. And I don't want to hear about who hit who first either.
You're acting now like water boarding is the only way to convince someone to give you accurate information. So, you create a scenario where accurate information is needed extremely urgently to prevent a major catastrophe and conclude water boarding is the most effective way to get that information. First of all, you know thats wrong and second of all you know its never going to go down that way either. Where there would be a complete lack of any knowledge as to where a weapon might be? Or how to disarm it? C'mon Berzerker, waterboarding the guy isnt going to get you your answers and it isnt going to end because its all tit for tat.
Berzerker
Deity
JR's role is that of smart ass (read his posts, not one is serious), that aint my role. I'm just being smart
Who hit whom first and how hard matters (its called justification). Jihadists didn't start beheading people because we were water boarding terrorists, we've only water boarded a few people and it was secret until the media exposed the program long after the beheadings. The comparison is ridiculous, we dunk yer head in water and they cut it off. And you think the former rationally leads to the latter (assuming yer chronology was right)? Did American soldiers start mass beheadings of Japanese after they were water boarding our soldiers?
You're acting like you'd rather argue against yerself than me. I never said anything even close to that...
If it works, it works. It worked fast on the sheik... If serving the terrorist tea and crumpets gets him to talk, great. I'm not concerned with the terrorist, I'm concerned with any impending attack.
How in the hell do I know that? This debate is about the alleged inherent immorality of water boarding and your argument is we'd never get to use it under the right circumstances? Well, you've conceded the point because the right circumstances can exist whether or not we ever see them. If water boarding was inherently immoral there wouldn't be any right circumstances.
Well, we got answers from the sheik. If we water boarded him on 9/8 I'd say there's a chance he'd talk and we'd have saved 3,000 people from a horrible fate. But you know he wouldn't have talked, fine. I think I'd rather trust military interrogators over your omniscience.
Hey, 3 grand and I'll be water boarded. I'm tough enough for that, you tough enough to pay the bill
It isn't (in a true ticking time bomb situation), but we haven't (of the cases that have been disclosed).
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