Western comes from Greek ?

[jonatas]

Science and art were developing under the patronage of religion and that was the reason why nearly a millenium of social and technological progress was easily overshadowed by amazing development during relatively short time as soon as what halted it back was removed.

Companiero, I think I agree with your overall perspective as expressed in this thread, though I disagree with you here somewhat, for using overly broad statements, and Plotinus too for agreeing with you too readily...

for me, the climax of medieval art occurred in the songs of the Occitan trobadors, for example Jaufre Rudel, who died in Lebanon during the 2nd Crusade, but wrote his poems in vernacular Occitan.. really initiating modern poetry ie. not in Latin... for me, he is the peak of Medieval literature, and indeed possibly of all modern literature.. Dante and even Chaucer, whom you admit to be noteworthy, admired Occitan as the "mother of all poetry"... and Occitan was a vulgar language, not "religious" ie. Latin... in fact we can trace the inspiration and origin of Occitan trobadors as coming from Iberian Muslim poets... A paradox to consider is that many Muslim scientists were also men of religion and philosophers in Medieval times, and preservers of Greek knowledge.. remember that alchemy was not separated from science... this is the problem of this thread, Greek knowledge belongs to both East and West for me...

Tragically a crusade would be held against Southern France, destroying the unique culture and language which produced the Trobadors, however their artistic influence cannot be overlooked as climactic for the Middle Ages. If you want to talk about poetry and literature, there is no doubt that the Occitan trobadors reigned supreme in the Middle Ages, influencing later Old French trouveres and Iberian trobadors and indeed any poems not written in Latin, even to our time. And they were not religous monks by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[frekk]

This is true as far as it goes, but if religion "held back" progress in all these areas, it also encouraged it. For example, music may have advanced only in service to the church, but without the church it might not have advanced at all.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head here. I'm not so certain about the arts, but I do think when it comes to science and philosophy, there wasn't much actual advancement made by the church relative to the classical era. But, what's really amazing is that they managed to preserve it, and not just the specific works or ideas, but the actual institutions. I think alot of people see the church's role as just a sort of dumb librarian, storing things away without understanding them, but I view the church as, first, incorporating Roman institutions (especially of education) into itself towards the end of the Empire and then brokering its influence in order to allow their survival, in order to allow them to continue to function even if at a much reduced capacity. They actually survived under the church's wings. Which is all the more amazing considering the weak state of the church through most of the Middle Ages - quite a dangerous game, the game of kings, and truly well-played by the Popes no matter how Machiavellian they had to get to do it.

It's hard to imagine that there would be hundreds of scholars studying mathematics and philosophy in the early middle ages, were it not for the church. Under which early kings would this have been funded? Aside from the Carolingian renaissance - itself dubious without the church - it just would have vanished, entirely, the institutions, the knowledge, the written works, the language, everything.

this is the problem of this thread, Greek knowledge belongs to both East and West for me...

I just don't think it's become controversial yet, which is why it hasn't been brought up. When we speak about the East, most acknowledge it was a continuation of Greek developments and later repatriated to the West - but when the Church comes up, there is dispute about the novelty of their contributions.